Just watched the England vs. NZ game at Olympic Stadium. Frustrating performce but most disappointing two players for me were Gareth Widdopp and Elliott Whitehead. They werent the only poor ones but I was disappointed with them.

Widdop's kicking was poor. Williams' wasn't great but given his experience Widdop should be doing more. Very little spark in attack and he neds to be more vocal and show more leadership skills. If I was McNamara i'd play Matty Smith and Williams in the halves next week. Drop Widdop. Matty Smith and George Williams will have the experience of playing together at club level and will both be on familiar territory at home in Wigan.

Elliott Whitehead was also incredibly disappointing. He looks exhausted and flat footed whenever he plays at international level. He was similarly poor in the game he played for England in 4 Nations last year. We all have a good impression of Whitehead but im starting to wonder whether it's just because most of us watch him when Catalan home games are on TV. Catlan always play well at home but i get the impression Whitehead is poor for most Catalan away games but perhaps we dont see this as much with less TV coverage. I think Whitehead will struggle in NRL next season.

Anyway, at least they both are willing to pull the shirt on for their country and give up their off season for the internationals, unlike some St Helens players who would seemingly rather be on holiday.

You are "Mr Angry" from Steve Wright in the afternoon, and i claim my £5

Bit harsh on Whitehead who I felt went ok. Disappointments for me were Williams, who I thought had a shocker, Widdop who really should be taking control in games like that and Hardaker, offered nothing and didn't put himself in the line as an attacking option.

I however wouldn't change anything for game 3. We need to work on combinations.

Defence was outstanding looking for a positive.

imo Williams shouldn't be in the team,bateman not a centre, play him instead of whitehead/Farrell,

I don't think any England player had a better than average game, to be fair, but Widdop was the worst of the lot, IMO. He's managed to get to where he is because he's been carried by some of the legends of the game, at all levels. He looked good along side Cronk and Smith at Melbourne, and he's previously been carried by the likes of Tomkins and Sinfield for England, and now that he's being asked to be the main play maker for St George, and England his average skill set is being exposed. If he wasn't in the NRL I doubt anyone would give him the time of day.
Williams is in his first season, and will sometimes put in performances like he did today, and that's the gamble you take with picking young players. He'll need to widen his skill set though, he has a good kicking game close to the line, and has a good step, and offload, but the other areas of his game need some serious work.
We're desperate for a half who can actually pass a ball, though. McGuire, and Brown are the only ones knocking around SL with world class passing games, but they're both in their 30s now. Tomkins also has this ability and has been badly missed.

Surprise surprise pacific posts exactly the same thread on the Wigan and Leeds board even though it has absolutely nothing to do with any Rhinos players

Williams was the worst player on the pitch.
He may one day be international class but that looked a long way off today

I don't think any player came off that pitch with any credit to be fair. I've never seen two test matches as pedestrian as the ones i've seen over the last week, even the atmosphere doesn't feel test standard.
Although i do like Roby i did think that England played far better when Hodgson was on the pitch as he seemed to give us a little bit of a spark.

I find it difficult to criticise George Williams too much, first test played well with little help from Widdop against a poor defensive NZ team, second test played poor with no help from Widdop against a better defensive NZ team. Widdop with all his experience in the NRL is very average in an international set up.
So what will McBanana do next week drop Williams from playing on his home ground and play Gale knowing Widdop will probably keep on using "pass the parcel" creativity.

Always rated george Williams but today showed he's nowhere near ready for new Zealand or the aussies, he wasn't on his own, but in such an important position we need someone to give us a way forward, I'm afraid the young kids kicking game was poor constantly finding their fullback and as his confidence went his passing game deteriated, as I said early he's a star in the making but not at the moment

There were 34 players who could be criticised.
Woeful rugby from both teams.
You can't polish a turd so a game to forget and no point in highlighting individuals just to wind people up.

As good a summary as we're going to get.

imo gotta give gale a game,cant do no worse and but bateman where he belongs in the pack,cudjo to centre

Anyone thinking Luke Gale is the answer is crazy.

This is why international RL just doesn't 'do it for me'. The fans of the smaller clubs slate the players who play for the proper sides (only gets picked because he plays for Wigan etc).

On the other side the fans of the big sides always single out guys from rival teams I.e Wigan fans slate Hardaker whilst Leeds fans pick Williams etc.

RL, imo, is the best game in the world because of its rivalries. State of Origin, Wigan vs Saints, Leeds vs Saints are all rivalries to match anythingin other sports have to offer. A divided England vs Kiwis hasn't got that and never will.

Stick to club rugby as it's where the passion and excitement is.

I agree with you re Williams and he will be a very good international player when he as started to fully develop and gets a few more international games. But how bad he was overall is nothing to how shocking in attack Hardaker is taking into account he is the current MOS. In 2 games has created nothing. Defence is solid but in the modern RL a FB has to get into the line and take it on or create space for players. He runs the ball back well but when the side needs to create something he has been found out at this level.

Williams should not play next week but if Tomkins was fit neither would Hardaker. Hall and Burgess on the wings are getting nothing as neither centre have a sniff of creating anything. Watkins is a class centre and he can break a game open. Unsure re Bateman he is very good second row but international centre I am not convinced. Maybe Hardaker is the answer for that position as an International FB in attack he is the wrong player.

The gameplan was the problem, not the ability of the players. Bash it up the middle, Bradford Bulls style, and without the good kicking game to make that dull but effective. So it shackles our offloading forwards, allows the NZ defence to set themselves easily every time, and the halves get no space and the threequarters get no ball. Hard for any players to shine when they've been told to play like that.

Hardaker did not shine last week either so that really does not solve the FB issue does it given how good England was last week in attack.

England weren't *that* great in attack last week! We were heavily reliant on a few lovely touches from George Williams to spark something. Today Williams had a very poor game, and the lack of threat from anyone else, especially Widdop, was telling.

Been on a few of other sites and one general consensus is that our half backs were exceptionally poor which I don't disagree with but the solutions offered or should I say solution is Gale which in itself probably may be effective but I won't hold my breath.
For me our attack was far too slow from the first minute and never got out of first gear. Roby must start next week and play the full 80 minutes. Hodgsons place could go to Gale or Williams to at least have something on the bench as an alternative if things don't go well. The obsession with four forwards on the bench strangles any alternative plans plays into the hands of a team who can only play it down the middle with little or no flair.
We are not a great team but the coach needs to let the team play with a faster tempo and take the shackles off.
I would play Cudjoe next week and replace Whitehead with Bateman and put Gale or Williams on the bench. It wouldn't make us into world beaters but should still be enough to turnover a poor outfit.
It's not new forwards or half backs that we need it is for me simply to play the game at a much faster pace. I've seen some bad NZ teams over the years but this is the worst by a country mile and if we can't beat them then it will be an awful indictment of our game.
I genuinely can't recall an international game as slow as today and I fully expect a totally different approach for next week. The forwards will turn it around next week and even if the half backs are not much better it will still be good enough to beat a pedestrian team.
Whatever the result a new coach is required or the next 4 nations could be embarrassing in the extreme. There are at least 3 better English coaches waiting for the call who would improve what is on the whole quite a decent squad that needs less coaching but requires encouragement to express themselves and learn to believe in themselves more.
I will have my money on England next week and if he plays Williams for MOM. I just hope that now we have a what is effectively a cup tie to win the series both teams up the ante.

Having just re-watched it on TV, I'll say one thing; I didn't have a problem with Sutton's reffing at all. He got the big calls right, and the penalties were virtually always justified. It's a good job the decider is at the DW. And I agree George Williams is quite capable of stepping up to the plate.

I don't think we were great in attack last week to be honest. The first try was a total fluke, the last one was very lucky as well as Lockers didn't look like he had much of a plan before Blair shot out at him. We need to find ways to release the backs

I'm with you. In fact, I thought Sean could have been penalised for using the shoulder on Blair but as we see so often the ball carrier gets away with it.
Re yesterday, that is just about the worst international match I've ever seen. A perfect opportunity to showcase our sport squandered yet again. At least we have the tension of a deciding leg to look forward to but if we continue to be so timid I fear the worst.
In terms of individuals I agree with other criticisms of the half backs but want to mention how anonymous both Burgess and Hardaker have been for both games. Burgess may be fortunate inasmuch as the other wing options available are only of similar quality. Hardaker, however, has Sam breathing down his neck, a world class alternative who will stroll back into the team as soon as he is fit.

You're blaming Burgess for the fact he hasn't had one chance created for him? I blame all those inside him personally.

As for Hardaker, fullback is a position where you can have a direct influence as you can and should join the line frequently.

Burgess has done far less than Hall in both games and has been the least noticed of all our backs, hence my use of the word anonymous. He's still allowed to come inside and look for work, something Hall has done to far greater effect over the two games IMO.