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| Quote [Super League will scrap the current Super 8s format next season and switch to a 'one-up, one-down' system, says new chief executive Robert Elstone.
Promotion and relegation is currently decided by fusing the Super League's bottom four after 23 regular season games with the Championship top four.
After playing each other once, the top three go up, while a fourth versus fifth play-off completes the quartet.
"The Super 8s was well-intended," Elstone told BBC Sport.
"In the search for a competition format that retained interest right through is a laudable objective, but what it has created is too much uncertainty and risk. Right now 12 Super League clubs, six or seven of them are worried about dropping into the Qualifiers, getting a bad injury run and facing big life changes.
"The Championship clubs looking up are thinking it's a great opportunity, but in the medium term if you're promoted then a year later you face the same risk.
"Fans aren't sure about fixture lists, broadcasters aren't sure about fixture lists, and I think we just have to take the uncertainty out and go back to something we are used to.
"The detail of one-up one down in terms of standards, the automatic nature is something we need to work through."
That format, introduced in 2015, means all clubs play 30 games before any further play-off activity, six more than their National Rugby League counterparts in the southern hemisphere.
With Challenge Cup ties also added to the schedule, elite players in the northern hemisphere are taking on a greater workload.
'It's an absurd grab for power'
There has already been one dissenting voice after Elstone revealed the changes - Leeds Rhinos chief executive Gary Hetherington.
Hetherington, who has had administrative roles at Sheffield and Leeds as well as coaching and playing positions, and was formerly president of the RFL, was quick to reveal his discontent.
"Today's announcement regarding plans for next season appear to be an absurd grab for power for the game by a small group of men who think they own the game," the statement from Leeds said.
"Leeds Rhinos are not party to this and are totally against the creation of a separate Super League executive.
"Super League clubs voted 7 to 5 at our last meeting on some key issues related to promotion and relegation.
"The game is in need of strong leadership from Brian Barwick and his board of directors at the Rugby Football League, the games governing body, and this announcement should bring a response from everyone connected with the game."
Elstone, flanked by St Helens owner Eamonn McManus, Wigan owner Ian Lenagan and Warrington owner Simon Moran, covered a wide range of topics on his introduction to the media.
The key messages were:
The Super League was keen to work with the Rugby Football League, working together to strengthen the game
Fears of a loss of funding for Championship and League One clubs outside Super League - currently guaranteed up to 2021 by the broadcast deal - were allayed
Super League is the main point of attraction for new fans of the game and must be given the best resources to grow the sport
There had been some concern that the appointment of a new chief executive was a precursor towards a split similar to that of the Premier League from the Football League in 1992.
However, the message at the press conference was one of partnership and reconciliation rather than breaking out.
"The game can't be fractured, it has to heal and come together as one, I have to establish positive working relationships with RFL that recognises Super League's responsibility to the wider game but equally we have to set bar highly for the RFL," Elstone added.
"We need them to be best in class around rules, compliance and referees. We have to be brilliant at developing commercial focus, but we need to work together."
There had been whispers earlier in the season that the future of funding for Championship and League One clubs could be changed.
But all parties were keen to point out the broadcast agreement the sport has with television broadcaster Sky would remain in place.
"There is a commitment, that financial security is in place for the entirety of the broadcasting deal," Elstone said.
Saints chairman McManus added
Thoughts? Where does it leave us?
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| Where does it leave us? It leaves us in the same position as every other club that wants promotion, we are no different from anyone else.
All depends on how much money you have to spend to get the players you need to top the league and win any comp that is put in place to decide who goes up, or comes down.
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| Quote ="northernbloke"Where does it leave us?'" Not sure it makes any difference to us. DH isn't going to fund a SL standard squad.
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| What about the next owner?
DH is not going to be around forever.
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| It makes little difference to us or our aspirations or lack of them. Without the Argyle/Beaumont aggressive buying of a squad and bankrolling further when promoted we will shuffle along in the upper half of the 2nd tier until our retired owner vanishes.......and then it's down to the Skolars level and beyond.
What it means for the game is that the top teams (Wigan/Saints/Leeds/Wire/FC) with the sustainable business model will grow, the middle sides (Castleford, Catalan) will strive and the rest will scramble to avoid the drop like they did back in the day and when the money men die off, the likes of Huddersfield, Salford, Wakefield, Widnes and Toronto will join us chasing scraps from the top table......it's all about financial sustainability.....something we've never been good at.
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| Based on this statement the Denver game should be scrapped, as it's main aim is to promote the international expansion of the UK game. We will be cast adrift along with Fev, Halifax, Dewsbury etc., if the new clubs are allowed the same open cheque book that Toronto have enjoyed.
The "RFL" need to regain control of the sport and run it in all members interests, but current and potential. That will need a new Chairman, board and CEO as a precursor.
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| How are they deciding the one up from the Championship?? Is it the top side, or is it a play off between the Top 2/4 to see who goes up. If it is top 1 it will just be the relegated side going back up each season (thanks to their parachute payment) probably (or the new North American team that joins)
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| The suggestion is the MPG will still be there (hopefully with a less cringeworthy name) with the winner being promoted.
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| Looks like they are going for a top 2 play off game to decide who goes up. That will not last long I would imagine folk will be up in arms when the team that finishes second wins the one off game to go up.
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| Quote ="northernbloke"What about the next owner?
DH is not going to be around forever.'"
I would rather we had a club that was sustainable in its own right but we seem a long way from that now.
I seem to remember Lenegan saying at one point that break even would require an average gate of around 5,000. We were achieving that at the start of the SL era and had the potential of doing so towards the end of our time at Griffin Park and in the early years back at The Stoop.
Since then attendances have steadily declined and while costs in the Championship are less so is the income from away fans and TV.
Our attendance history suggests that being sustainable in London requires a competitive SL team. Clearly DH is no longer willing or able to make the sort of investment required for that and perhaps will only fund a part-time Championship side going forward.
In the absence of a new owner who could make the required investment (clearly at considerable risk) we will continue to rely DH and possibly decline further.
Having said all of that, I would rather watch a reasonably competitive Championship side than a poor SL team like we had during the later years at The Stoop and at The Hive.
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| Quote ="Call Me God":mj1tgb5rIt makes little difference to us or our aspirations or lack of them. Without the Argyle/Beaumont aggressive buying of a squad and bankrolling further when promoted we will shuffle along in the upper half of the 2nd tier until our retired owner vanishes.......and then it's down to the Skolars level and beyond.
What it means for the game is that the top teams (Wigan/Saints/Leeds/Wire/FC) with the sustainable business model will grow, the middle sides (Castleford, Catalan) will strive and the rest will scramble to avoid the drop like they did back in the day and when the money men die off, the likes of Huddersfield, Salford, Wakefield, Widnes and Toronto will join us chasing scraps from the top table......it's all about financial sustainability.....something we've never been good at.'" and Cas within 15mins of going out of business, both during the licencing period that was supposedly going to see the end of that sort of thing). Cas are some £3million in hock to the Fulton family and have been quite fortunate that when Jack Fulton died his heirs didn't demand the money back as was widely expected to happen. Furthermore, Wakefield is a city of some 100,000+ people, whereas Cas is a town of around 40,000 and by some distance the smallest metropolis of all the teams in SL.
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| So the assumption on here is when DH eventually goes then the club is doomed. The club has had different owners previously and will hopefully have different owners in the future.
As for being self sustaining, not many clubs are! They all need input from somewhere else on top of gate receipts.
As for the 5k required to break even, as a club when did that happen? Early days of SL! Potential of doing so at end of griffin park days is a bit of a strange statement, potential is still not achieving it.
Think a lot of clubs teeter on the edge of existence and rely on someone to bankroll them, sadly until RL as a whole learns how to hit the headlines London Broncos will always struggle to get folk through the door, SL status or not.
Barry Hearn anyone? Let him have a go atpromoting the game, if he can fill stadiums with folk watching darts am sure he could increase the profile of our game.
For Broncos who knows how longer DH will keep the wallet open, let’s hope someone out there sees something that will tempt em into putting money in and we do continue full time.
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| Quote ="northernbloke"As for the 5k required to break even, as a club when did that happen? Early days of SL! Potential of doing so at end of griffin park days is a bit of a strange statement, potential is still not achieving it.'" In 1996 (finishing 4th place) we averaged around 5,700 and in 1997 (2nd) over 5,000. For 2005, the last year at Griffin Park it was just over 4,000 (6th). Back at The Stoop in 2006 it was almost 5,000 (7th) but I think that figure may be distorted by a double header crowd if memory serves correct. Anyway, back then, there was potential with a competitive team and more marketing (which DH never seemed that interested in) to grow the attendance to a sustainable level.
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| Just saying that griffin park was not 5k.
Potential for 5 is always there, as we have done it in the past.
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| I recently spent some time in hospital. A friend bought me in The Rothmans RL Yearbook 1997 to read. Contained within are Club attendances from seasons 1988-89 through to 1996.
London average crowds were 588 in 88-89 rising to 5699 in 1996.
What surprised me most was in 1996 our attendances were the sixth largest in Super League. Bigger crowds that year than. Warrington, Castleford, Halifax, Sheffield, Workington and Oldham.
We did market ourselves then. Five pound vouchers in The Sun for example. Plus we had a good team getting good results. Happy days.
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| Quote ="Bostwick"I recently spent some time in hospital. A friend bought me in The Rothmans RL Yearbook 1997 to read. Contained within are Club attendances from seasons 1988-89 through to 1996.
London average crowds were 588 in 88-89 rising to 5699 in 1996.
What surprised me most was in 1996 our attendances were the sixth largest in Super League. Bigger crowds that year than. Warrington, Castleford, Halifax, Sheffield, Workington and Oldham.
We did market ourselves then. Five pound vouchers in The Sun for example. Plus we had a good team getting good results. Happy days.'"
My first live RL game was Broncos first ever home game (under the new name, obviously) v Keighley at Hendon FC. An interesting experience having only watched the game on TV until then! The growth from that position over the following few years was fantastic and I thought the club was really going places.
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| INg Quote ="nadera78"Quote ="Bostwick"I recently spent some time in hospital. A friend bought me in The Rothmans RL Yearbook 1997 to read. Contained within are Club attendances from seasons 1988-89 through to 1996.
London average crowds were 588 in 88-89 rising to 5699 in 1996.
What surprised me most was in 1996 our attendances were the sixth largest in Super League. Bigger crowds that year than. Warrington, Castleford, Halifax, Sheffield, Workington and Oldham.
We did market ourselves then. Five pound vouchers in The Sun for example. Plus we had a good team getting good results. Happy days.'"
My first live RL game was Broncos first ever home game (under the new name, obviously) v Keighley at Hendon FC. An interesting experience having only watched the game on TV until then! The growth from that position over the following few years was fantastic and I thought the club was really going places.'" OUT
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| Quote ="Bostwick"I recently spent some time in hospital. A friend bought me in The Rothmans RL Yearbook 1997 to read. Contained within are Club attendances from seasons 1988-89 through to 1996.
London average crowds were 588 in 88-89 rising to 5699 in 1996.
What surprised me most was in 1996 our attendances were the sixth largest in Super League. Bigger crowds that year than. Warrington, Castleford, Halifax, Sheffield, Workington and Oldham.
We did market ourselves then. Five pound vouchers in The Sun for example. Plus we had a good team getting good results. Happy days.'"
Oh those days of average crowds of 588. Must have been the Chiswick/Crystal Palace era I think..and I’m glad we never had mobile phones in those days ..some of the players antics then makes the Tomkins brothers sound like choirboys !!
Can think of a dozen or so players that liked to socialise as I write !
Fun days
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"I'm always intrigued as to why Cas seem to be looked upon as more sustainable, bigger, and with more potential than, say, Wakefield?'"
9,525 was the average attendance at Castleford in 2017.....5,289 was the number at Wakefield...one club is closer to 10k than the other and those extra fans make them closer to self sustainability.
10k average is the self sufficiency number....and that's with the SKY cash.......every fan below 10,000 means £15/£20 less income and £15/£20 needed to be found from elsewhere.........thus, currently, Wakefield aren't as close to sustainability as Castleford and therefore by association are bigger and are more sustainable whilst filling more of their potential.
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| Quote ="northernbloke"Just saying that griffin park was not 5k.
Potential for 5 is always there, as we have done it in the past.'"
I don't think I said it was 5k at Griffin Park, but 4k is clearly a lot closer to it than 500. Different times have different potential to be sustainable. We are a long way from that now not least because there is very little attempt to build the crowds.
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| Quote ="Call Me God"9,525 was the average attendance at Castleford in 2017.....5,289 was the number at Wakefield...one club is closer to 10k than the other and those extra fans make them closer to self sustainability.
10k average is the self sufficiency number....and that's with the SKY cash.......every fan below 10,000 means £15/£20 less income and £15/£20 needed to be found from elsewhere.........thus, currently, Wakefield aren't as close to sustainability as Castleford and therefore by association are bigger and are more sustainable whilst filling more of their potential.'"
So Cas are currently attracting 22% of the town's population - a figure that is not only going to be difficult to grow but also a bit of an outlier in terms of their usual numbers over the years - a very good season last year on the playing front having I'd say a pretty significant effect on those numbers and once their on field success wanes (at it will) numbers will drop again. Another factor against them growing much more is that even if they do actually get a new ground the published plan is for a stadium wirh a capacity of 10000 so they will have to be selling out EVERY week to become sustainable (based on your figures). If the plan really is to grow the game and attract new, significant money, it won't happen with the current incumbents remaining.
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"So Cas are currently attracting 22% of the town's population - a figure that is not only going to be difficult to grow but also a bit of an outlier in terms of their usual numbers over the years - a very good season last year on the playing front having I'd say a pretty significant effect on those numbers and once their on field success wanes (at it will) numbers will drop again. Another factor against them growing much more is that even if they do actually get a new ground the published plan is for a stadium wirh a capacity of 10000 so they will have to be selling out EVERY week to become sustainable (based on your figures). If the plan really is to grow the game and attract new, significant money, it won't happen with the current incumbents remaining.'"
If you want to p!ss on Castleford, either do it on their board or on the Wakey one, but on here....and as a 100% NEUTRAL....... Castleford are the bigger and better supported team to the outside observer....this is based on facts and not what you or any other bar room annalist and their mother think.....just facts......like cash, the things you can touch, feel and take to the Bank!
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