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| Quote ="meliferra"You claim to know how much Broncos season ticket is on incorrect information and a complete lack of understanding of how the scheme works.'"
well, I wouldn't have to ing trawl the internet and scour the Barnet website to investigate the potential cost for 2014 if the Club had a clue. Less than 500 ST holders in 2012........and less again in 2013, so rather than let a little old keyboard warrior like me get things wrong, why not at least communicate to last years customers and let them know the prices for next year......unless of course TK hasn't given it any thought 
As for early bird schemes being extended and special offers....nothing like a good discounting policy to set the bar  ....1,800 average for Barnet FC this year...we're going to fit right in |
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I didnt have to trawl anything.
Main website www.barnetfc.com
click on tickets.
Is that really so hard? Alternatively you could have asked rather than make assumptions on outdated information.
This is the first year of the membership and the club adopted the same methodology as a season ticket on the membership with the early bird concept. Supporters like me contacted the club and explained why this wouldn't make financial sense. Basically after you had gone three games into the season then the full membership worked out dearer than paying on the door so they agreed to retain the original membership prices. Truth of this is almost nobody buys season tickets at full wack, if you are that late then most just pay on the door because there is little value to be had.
You probably don't know (or care) about our history but basically we went from 500 avg attendance to reaching the 3rd tier (League 1) with 3-4000 avg attendances bankrolled by a wealthy chairman (Stan Flashman) who then pulled the plug without warning, we lost all our players and had to rebuild almost from scratch. TK has been slowly putting the infrastructure in place so we are self-sufficent and while this hasn't yet been converted to promotion most can see the benefits of what he has done and that we are no longer reliant on someone bailing us out. If we are successful this season then crowds will go up, if not they will go down. Id prefer the former but I'm realistic enough to know it may not be so. As an aside we have sold nearly 4000 tickets for our next home game so it's not all bad.
I'd rather be optimistic and suggest that the 2 teams now playing at the Hive would look to support each other and so boost attendances for both parties but hey, what do I know. |
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I didnt have to trawl anything.
Main website www.barnetfc.com
click on tickets.
Is that really so hard? Alternatively you could have asked rather than make assumptions on outdated information.
This is the first year of the membership and the club adopted the same methodology as a season ticket on the membership with the early bird concept. Supporters like me contacted the club and explained why this wouldn't make financial sense. Basically after you had gone three games into the season then the full membership worked out dearer than paying on the door so they agreed to retain the original membership prices. Truth of this is almost nobody buys season tickets at full wack, if you are that late then most just pay on the door because there is little value to be had.
You probably don't know (or care) about our history but basically we went from 500 avg attendance to reaching the 3rd tier (League 1) with 3-4000 avg attendances bankrolled by a wealthy chairman (Stan Flashman) who then pulled the plug without warning, we lost all our players and had to rebuild almost from scratch. TK has been slowly putting the infrastructure in place so we are self-sufficent and while this hasn't yet been converted to promotion most can see the benefits of what he has done and that we are no longer reliant on someone bailing us out. If we are successful this season then crowds will go up, if not they will go down. Id prefer the former but I'm realistic enough to know it may not be so. As an aside we have sold nearly 4000 tickets for our next home game so it's not all bad.
I'd rather be optimistic and suggest that the 2 teams now playing at the Hive would look to support each other and so boost attendances for both parties but hey, what do I know. | |
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Quote ="meliferra"I didnt have to trawl anything.
Main website www.barnetfc.com
click on tickets.
Is that really so hard? Alternatively you could have asked rather than make assumptions on outdated information.
This is the first year of the membership and the club adopted the same methodology as a season ticket on the membership with the early bird concept. Supporters like me contacted the club and explained why this wouldn't make financial sense. Basically after you had gone three games into the season then the full membership worked out dearer than paying on the door so they agreed to retain the original membership prices. Truth of this is almost nobody buys season tickets at full wack, if you are that late then most just pay on the door because there is little value to be had.
You probably don't know (or care) about our history but basically we went from 500 avg attendance to reaching the 3rd tier (League 1) with 3-4000 avg attendances bankrolled by a wealthy chairman (Stan Flashman) who then pulled the plug without warning, we lost all our players and had to rebuild almost from scratch. TK has been slowly putting the infrastructure in place so we are self-sufficent and while this hasn't yet been converted to promotion most can see the benefits of what he has done and that we are no longer reliant on someone bailing us out. If we are successful this season then crowds will go up, if not they will go down. Id prefer the former but I'm realistic enough to know it may not be so. As an aside we have sold nearly 4000 tickets for our next home game so it's not all bad.
I'd rather be optimistic and suggest that the 2 teams now playing at the Hive would look to support each other and so boost attendances for both parties but hey, what do I know.'"
Cool story Bro.
Here are some FACTS for you regarding your new best buddies.
Your new tenants/ground sharers receive about £1.5 million a year from the SL TV deal and in 2012, spent a total of £2.7 MILLION on their first team squad and £524,000 on Coaches.....the Owner sunk £2.2 million in to cover their shortfall.
2013 figures are not available, but I assure you that they are just as ugly!
Bottom line is that a team of 2nd rate players (we are shopping for cast offs and loaners) will finish dead set bottom in 2014, hardly inspiring either new or existing fans to pay £16 or more to witness weekly hammerings. TK will not see any benefit of future in having a championship club with 800 fans in 2015 and London Broncos will move on again.
Basically, It costs a minimum of £4,000,000 to run a SL club. £2,500,000 of that needs to be generated by the club itself with the rest from SKY money. In 2012, the club raised £543,000.
On your last point......we've shared/rented with Charlton, Harlequins, Charlton, Brentford and Harlequins over 18 seasons. When it comes to cross fan cultivation, I wouldn't be holding my breath  |
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Quote ="meliferra"I didnt have to trawl anything.
Main website www.barnetfc.com
click on tickets.
Is that really so hard? Alternatively you could have asked rather than make assumptions on outdated information.
This is the first year of the membership and the club adopted the same methodology as a season ticket on the membership with the early bird concept. Supporters like me contacted the club and explained why this wouldn't make financial sense. Basically after you had gone three games into the season then the full membership worked out dearer than paying on the door so they agreed to retain the original membership prices. Truth of this is almost nobody buys season tickets at full wack, if you are that late then most just pay on the door because there is little value to be had.
You probably don't know (or care) about our history but basically we went from 500 avg attendance to reaching the 3rd tier (League 1) with 3-4000 avg attendances bankrolled by a wealthy chairman (Stan Flashman) who then pulled the plug without warning, we lost all our players and had to rebuild almost from scratch. TK has been slowly putting the infrastructure in place so we are self-sufficent and while this hasn't yet been converted to promotion most can see the benefits of what he has done and that we are no longer reliant on someone bailing us out. If we are successful this season then crowds will go up, if not they will go down. Id prefer the former but I'm realistic enough to know it may not be so. As an aside we have sold nearly 4000 tickets for our next home game so it's not all bad.
I'd rather be optimistic and suggest that the 2 teams now playing at the Hive would look to support each other and so boost attendances for both parties but hey, what do I know.'"
Cool story Bro.
Here are some FACTS for you regarding your new best buddies.
Your new tenants/ground sharers receive about £1.5 million a year from the SL TV deal and in 2012, spent a total of £2.7 MILLION on their first team squad and £524,000 on Coaches.....the Owner sunk £2.2 million in to cover their shortfall.
2013 figures are not available, but I assure you that they are just as ugly!
Bottom line is that a team of 2nd rate players (we are shopping for cast offs and loaners) will finish dead set bottom in 2014, hardly inspiring either new or existing fans to pay £16 or more to witness weekly hammerings. TK will not see any benefit of future in having a championship club with 800 fans in 2015 and London Broncos will move on again.
Basically, It costs a minimum of £4,000,000 to run a SL club. £2,500,000 of that needs to be generated by the club itself with the rest from SKY money. In 2012, the club raised £543,000.
On your last point......we've shared/rented with Charlton, Harlequins, Charlton, Brentford and Harlequins over 18 seasons. When it comes to cross fan cultivation, I wouldn't be holding my breath | |
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| Quote ="meliferra"
I'd rather be optimistic and suggest that the 2 teams now playing at the Hive would look to support each other and so boost attendances for both parties but hey, what do I know.'"
Genuine synergy is to be hoped for. A shared membership might work in that regard.
PS
Don't mind GF. He's a fully paid up member of The Stoop Hard-on Brigade. |
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| Quote ="Cowgirl Nostalgist"
Don't mind GF. He's a fully paid up member of The Stoop Hard-on Brigade.'"
Nope.....I just don't see the need to move away from the ground. Along with the name change, the move was pointless and will deliver little in the way of security in the long term for the club. I have no love of the Stoop, but we were in charge of our own destiny there. |
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| Quote ="gutterfax"I just don't see the need to move away from the ground. '"
Maybe not in 2006 but in 2013 the club has about as many fans as your average non-league football club.
The Hive is a state of the art facility in those terms.
We are where we are. Anything else is crying over spilt milk. |
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Melif,
Don't do it mate, get out of the Gutterfax vortex now!! If you get dragged in to it getting out is gonna be a challenge.
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| Quote ="gutterfax"Cool story Bro.
Here are some FACTS for you regarding your new best buddies.
Your new tenants/ground sharers receive about £1.5 million a year from the SL TV deal and in 2012, spent a total of £2.7 MILLION on their first team squad and £524,000 on Coaches.....the Owner sunk £2.2 million in to cover their shortfall.
2013 figures are not available, but I assure you that they are just as ugly!
Bottom line is that a team of 2nd rate players (we are shopping for cast offs and loaners) will finish dead set bottom in 2014, hardly inspiring either new or existing fans to pay £16 or more to witness weekly hammerings. TK will not see any benefit of future in having a championship club with 800 fans in 2015 and London Broncos will move on again.
Basically, It costs a minimum of £4,000,000 to run a SL club. £2,500,000 of that needs to be generated by the club itself with the rest from SKY money. In 2012, the club raised £543,000.
On your last point......we've shared/rented with Charlton, Harlequins, Charlton, Brentford and Harlequins over 18 seasons. When it comes to cross fan cultivation, I wouldn't be holding my breath
'"
How did they spend £2.7 million on the first team squad,how does that break down? |
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| Quote ="j.c"How did they spend £2.7 million on the first team squad,how does that break down?'"
I'd think that given it's a LIVE cap checking system, then £1,650,000 + 10% = £1,815,000 for the top 25 players and then £860k on the other fringe players?
The figures I have seen are not broken down, so I can't be sure, but it could be that the "heading" 1st Team includes everything (hotels/transport etc???)
I know that these figures are accurate and have been seen by the RFL so I doubt there's any skulduggery going on. |
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| Quote ="gutterfax"I'd think that given it's a LIVE cap checking system, then £1,650,000 + 10% = £1,815,000 for the top 25 players and then £860k on the other fringe players?
The figures I have seen are not broken down, so I can't be sure, but it could be that the "heading" 1st Team includes everything (hotels/transport etc???)
I know that these figures are accurate and have been seen by the RFL so I doubt there's any skulduggery going on.'"
Its frightening what it costs.
if theres ever an argument for massive investment in devoloping your own players then this is it |
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| Quote ="j.c"Its frightening what it costs.
if theres ever an argument for massive investment in devoloping your own players then this is it'"
Of the £4,400,000 needed to run the club in 2012, only £543,000 (12.5%) was generated by the club. The figure was 13% in 2011, 13.5% in 2010, 16.5% in 2009 and 20% in 2008. |
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Based on the matches against the other 13 SL teams over the last 18 seasons, the average attendance for a season is 3,591.
Anything less than this in 2014 and I suspect that TK won't be interested in anything other than keeping us as tenants and David Hughes continuing bankrolling the club. 46,681 fans over 13 games. The last time we achieved that as the London Broncos we were a play off team in 2005.
I suspect that in 2014 we will not be a play off team, so somebody, somewhere is going to need to pull a rabbit out of a hat!
AVERAGE ATTENDANCES:
Bradford 4,550
Castleford 3,294
Catalans 2,469
Hudds 3,207
Hull FC 3,534
Hull KR 3,063
Leeds 4,288
Saints 4,714
Salford 2,618
Wakey 2,827
Wire 3,731
Widnes 3,235
Wigan 5,151
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| Quote ="gutterfax"Of the £4,400,000 needed to run the club in 2012, only £543,000 (12.5%) was generated by the club. The figure was 13% in 2011, 13.5% in 2010, 16.5% in 2009 and 20% in 2008.'"
Oh dear not good figures at all.Its like the gambler blinked,shiit himself and then folded,what a shame. |
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| Quote ="j.c"Oh dear not good figures at all.Its like the gambler blinked,shiit himself and then folded,what a shame.'"
It amazes me that les than 12% of the spend on the team was spent trying to market them over the last 5 years and they wonder why nobody bothered turning up.
£1,400,000 on Marketing and Marketing Salaries is £280,000 a year. In that period, they managed to lose 1,000 fans off the average..  |
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| Sounds like we are close to agreement in some regards and you have shown that the biggest draw by far is success.
Quote ="gutterfax" TK will not see any benefit of future in having a championship club with 800 fans in 2015 and London Broncos will move on again.'"
I have avoided passing any comment on Broncos as I don't feel it is my place to do so but please forgive me this one occasion.
Were will Broncos go to if they are relegated?
Would the story be different at the Stoop?
I had already looked at Broncos finances and they are clearly unsustainable without someone prepared to throw away money or the club dramatically cutting costs. My first thought when I saw them as a Barnet fan was please god don't buy them unless it's debt free and you can cut 2 mil off the costs. As we have agreed TK is not the investor to keep an unsustainable business afloat but more someone who will look to make it viable.
If Broncos did get relegated and the current owners decided to sell debt free then I could easily see TK taking on Broncos and it being more likely that Broncos will stay put, it would be his chance to take ownership and build from the ground up. I have seen a few posts claiming he is only seeing this as a short term money making venture but tbh that's not his style (historically). In many regards it would be the same as his investment in London Bees.
If however Broncos do well straight away and start getting sellout crowds then the current owners will be less inclined to sell and they will probably start looking to move to a bigger ground quicker than the Hive can develop to accommodate them. I guess the real unknown is how long your investor will continue to foot the bill and whether or not there is someone else willing to take on that burden should they stop. |
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| Quote ="meliferra"Sounds like we are close to agreement in some regards and you have shown that the biggest draw by far is success.
I have avoided passing any comment on Broncos as I don't feel it is my place to do so but please forgive me this one occasion.
Were will Broncos go to if they are relegated?
Would the story be different at the Stoop?
I had already looked at Broncos finances and they are clearly unsustainable without someone prepared to throw away money or the club dramatically cutting costs. My first thought when I saw them as a Barnet fan was please god don't buy them unless it's debt free and you can cut 2 mil off the costs. As we have agreed TK is not the investor to keep an unsustainable business afloat but more someone who will look to make it viable.
If Broncos did get relegated and the current owners decided to sell debt free then I could easily see TK taking on Broncos and it being more likely that Broncos will stay put, it would be his chance to take ownership and build from the ground up. I have seen a few posts claiming he is only seeing this as a short term money making venture but tbh that's not his style (historically). In many regards it would be the same as his investment in London Bees.
If however Broncos do well straight away and start getting sellout crowds then the current owners will be less inclined to sell and they will probably start looking to move to a bigger ground quicker than the Hive can develop to accommodate them. I guess the real unknown is how long your investor will continue to foot the bill and whether or not there is someone else willing to take on that burden should they stop.'"
Fair enough.
A SL club needs 4 million a year to function at mid table level. Without that level of income, then the club would be certain to drop out of SL into the 2nd tier, where the income needed massively drops down to a million. Problem is that as a SL club, we don't generate enough funds to sustain a championship club so if/when they drop down, then that will be that! RL, like many other sports, relies quite heavily on benefactors. With the exception of Leeds, Warrington and Wigan...possibly Hull FC, clubs haemorrhage cash and as you've said TK isn't a fan of that business model. As for where would the Broncos go? Probably move in with the Skolars and eventually merge with them. |
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That could be a good call, it find it difficult to believe we can put out a team that will not be relegated unless of course the RFL have decided to drop P & R for another year.
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| Quote ="daftdad"That could be a good call, it find it difficult to believe we can put out a team that will not be relegated unless of course the RFL have decided to drop P & R for another year.'"
who is going to pay for the 2015 squad if it's P&R that year?
who is going to sign for us on a 1 year deal this year?
if P&R is to be postponed then would the RFL wait 'til mid January to announce it?
I suspect we are on life support to hour the Magic weekend fixture list and in the hope that we help make one of two choices at the end of the year a forgone conclusion |
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Meli raises and interesting point regarding TK taking over and and your suggestion of a merger with skolars in which case you answer your own questions, LB die
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doomed!! we are doomed I say!
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Quote ="meliferra"
If Broncos did get relegated and the current owners decided to sell debt free then I could easily see TK taking on Broncos and it being more likely that Broncos will stay put, it would be his chance to take ownership and build from the ground up. I have seen a few posts claiming he is only seeing this as a short term money making venture but tbh that's not his style (historically). In many regards it would be the same as his investment in London Bees. '"
Intriguing stuff. I echo Dave Lister's thanks for the useful and interesting information we're getting from you. On an immediate practical point, which of the two sideline stands is the closest to the Pitch, west or east? The plan shows the west walkway but it's not clear if there's one in front of the east stand as well.
www.barnetfc.com/club/stadium/ |
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Quote ="meliferra"
If Broncos did get relegated and the current owners decided to sell debt free then I could easily see TK taking on Broncos and it being more likely that Broncos will stay put, it would be his chance to take ownership and build from the ground up. I have seen a few posts claiming he is only seeing this as a short term money making venture but tbh that's not his style (historically). In many regards it would be the same as his investment in London Bees. '"
Intriguing stuff. I echo Dave Lister's thanks for the useful and interesting information we're getting from you. On an immediate practical point, which of the two sideline stands is the closest to the Pitch, west or east? The plan shows the west walkway but it's not clear if there's one in front of the east stand as well.
www.barnetfc.com/club/stadium/ | |
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| Quote ="mickyb1234"doomed!! we are doomed I say!'"
1. No club with an average under 10,000 in SL is self sufficient. They ALL make losses.
2. TK we are reliably informed does not invest.....he expects his teams to pay their own way
3. The Hive is currently a 5,200 capacity stadium.
4. See points 1 & 3 then re-read point 2.
Feel free to use a calculator if necessary! |
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I'm glad what info I have is useful and that you don't feel I'm imposing.
1. There is more to break even than bums on seats.
2. He may invest, but only to create something that breaks even. He likes his money too much to throw it away but he has spent millions on Barnet FC over the years. Including buying the freehold of Underhill, multiple planning applications (including the failed south underhill and Copthall bids), south stand at underhill and the Hive complex.
3. The Hive isnt really a 5200 capacity stadum.
It's currently a 5500 capacity stadium capped at 5200 by the council. It is also incomplete with further changes already scheduled for next year including -
Covered spectator area behind west stand, Lift and Raised disabled seating. North terrace replaced by extended South stand from Underhill. So in twelve months time we could be looking at a stadium with 5000 seats and 1000 terrace and if necessary asking the council for an increase in capacity. This is currently subject to a planning appeal to be heard in June
That's not all. Whilst the Hive was being built TK personally took fans on a tour around it. It already has planning permission for a second tier on the East stand and he has plans that one day he will replace the South terrace with a stand and fill in the corners to create an 8-10,000 capacity bowl. Whether any of this actually happens is anyone's guess but even if it doesn't, Barnet FC are still looking to build a 10,000 stadium in Barnet at some point in the next 10 years so that maybe a possibility.
On the question of whether there is a walkway in front of the west stand. There is a walkway all the way around the pitch that I would guess is at least 3 metres wide.
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| Quote ="meliferra"I'm glad what info I have is useful and that you don't feel I'm imposing.
1. There is more to break even than bums on seats.
2. He may invest, but only to create something that breaks even. He likes his money too much to throw it away but he has spent millions on Barnet FC over the years. Including buying the freehold of Underhill, multiple planning applications (including the failed south underhill and Copthall bids), south stand at underhill and the Hive complex.
3. The Hive isnt really a 5200 capacity stadum.
It's currently a 5500 capacity stadium capped at 5200 by the council. It is also incomplete with further changes already scheduled for next year including -
Covered spectator area behind west stand, Lift and Raised disabled seating. North terrace replaced by extended South stand from Underhill. So in twelve months time we could be looking at a stadium with 5000 seats and 1000 terrace and if necessary asking the council for an increase in capacity. This is currently subject to a planning appeal to be heard in June
That's not all. Whilst the Hive was being built TK personally took fans on a tour around it. It already has planning permission for a second tier on the East stand and he has plans that one day he will replace the South terrace with a stand and fill in the corners to create an 8-10,000 capacity bowl. Whether any of this actually happens is anyone's guess but even if it doesn't, Barnet FC are still looking to build a 10,000 stadium in Barnet at some point in the next 10 years so that maybe a possibility.
On the question of whether there is a walkway in front of the west stand. There is a walkway all the way around the pitch that I would guess is at least 3 metres wide.'"
Wow meliferra. Are you me in another guise?
Agree with everything you've put on this thread. TK certainly rubs some people up the wrong way (mostly councillors and let's be honest they have their own agenda and shouldn't be sympathised with) but for those of us who remember the Flashman years we always know he has the good of the club at heart. Few Football chairman have had to deal with the amount of crap that's come his way over the years - most of which you quoted above. Plenty of other chairman would have walked away.
But the bottom line is we have the kind of facility that many Premier League clubs didn't have when TK first came on board as Bees chairman. God knows, I miss Underhill but I'd feel the same about South Underhill and certainly Copthall (spit!!). And in true Barnet FC style the minute we get ourselves settled into a new ground we find ourselves in the middle of another council tug of war over the height of the stand and the floodlights. Totally ridiculous and no doubt it'll all be resolved once the Council elections are out of the way but just typical of the soap opera we have to go through as Barnet Football Club - the Broncos should fee right at home! And as for those poor saps like me who support both - well you can't help some people. We embrace the chaos.
4000 for the Luton game? That's gonna be quite an atmosphere. Roll on Boxing Day. |
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gutters your point is what? did I not say we are doomed?
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....1,800 average for Barnet FC this year...we're going to fit right in 
