OK.......
Bradford, until Saturday, were one of only 4 teams to average a gate of 4,000+ v London/Quins since 2000.
As it is, they have now dropped to a sub 4,000 average and I was wondering, apart from the fact that they have had a bad season, why we managed our 3rd worse gate of the season (only bettered by the welsh and the french). 4,016 was there average crowd, so where were the 900 or so missing fans?

Did the "dance off" not produce? Was the game promoted properly? Did the BBC game kicking off impact on the game?

When this fixture was re-scheduled, it must have been obvious to anyone witth a brain that the BBC would schedule a Saturday afternoon KO, so why didn't we bounce our game to a 5pm KO? Seriously......why?
3,112 is a disgrace and over all, the Summer campaign of four games has produced:
Less than average crowds for the games against The Bulls, Leeds and Saints with a better than average crowd against Huddersfield.
On the pitch, we have managed to gain 0 from 8 points and it has to be said that if any newbies had been tempted to try Quins RL, Watching us ship 166 points and only reply with 72 isn't going to make the season ticket hotline melt...

3 of these fixtures were against teams in 1,2,3 positions and it has to be said, it was pretty predictable that we would lose all 3 and it then beggars the question, why target these games? As it is, with Salford up next (average 2,670 v London) and our current season average 5% down on last year, I can see a crowd of less than 2,300 on Saturday.

The solution, as I see it? Don't know! I have posted for years on what I would do, but to be honest, it's not MY club and therefore, I have no inside knowledge of what funds (if any are available). I do get the impression that the Radio tie in with Capital failed and haven't seen much activity other than that. There was going to be a leaflet drop, but I doon't live in Twickenham so don't know if it happened.
If I were pressed for a solution, then I would fill the West Stand with freebies from local businesses for the Castleford game.
With 3 weeks to plan and execute a campaign, the club would need to pull out all the stops, but if GSK/SKY TV/Gillette/British Airways and other large companies were offered 250+ tickets for their staff, we would probably get some up-take. These companies are all feeling the pinch and for them to be able to "treat" their staff to a day out, may well prove attractive to them.
Castleford may well be a dead game (if we lose either of our next two it will be), so we will need to do something to attract people to the game.

I've always thought we have a great product and that if we get people along to games a fair few will come back. However, I suspect, that's just not the case right now. Saturday's game was over as a meaningful contest after 20 mins and totally devoid of atmosphere. Who would want to come back for more of that ?

go on lets start the fight
lets play on sundays next year see what the difference is

Lets not.

Might not be a bad idea. If Harlequins Rugby League declare that Sunday is the official fixture day for all games except SLY TV ones (or when the union boys whine) then I believe this would be another positive step forward. Saturdays are great, but we seem to be missing out on amateur/kids RL players coming to games, as well as those soccer fans from divs 1 & 2 whose teams rarely play any other day other than Saturday.
3pm Sundays, set in stone.
Next up, open the West Stand for Home fans other than on TV days. Allocate an East Stand seat to all ST holders for those days when the cameras are there, but otherwise, return to the West Stand.
Away fans. I don't like them in the north as 50 of them singing sounds like 2,000 due to the tin roof. I would stick them in the East stand.
Bars. Tricky one this. Except when we expect 4k+, I would only open the Kings for post match entertainment. To deal with 3,000 odd punters in the west, 3 beer wagons would be needed....1 each either side of the west and 1 between the south and the East. I would close the west stand bar as the second half kicks off and transfer them to the Kings bar which should open at full time.
Entertainment???? No more dancers/urban atheletes....
Elvis at half time is a laugh, as were the Blues Brothers, but 20 kids, with 20 mates watching isn't the audience we are going to retain.

All of the things above or any that the club are going to look at should be in the planning stage NOW.......not January next year. PB needs to consult the ST holders by letter/email and ask their opnions on various initiatives to be rolled out next year. Then, before ST's go on sale, the logistics put in place and everyone made aware of what is happening.

It would be refreshing for the club to ba able to announce these things now, well ahead of the end of the season. Also, if we are getting a new design of shirt for next year, then get it rolled out by November.....in time for christmas shopping and the festive day.

We are a small club, with 20 back room staff, players and 2,000 regular fans. Getting things organised on such a small scale shouldn't prove hard....should it?

I know this has been done to death in the past but why do people keep pretending that this is a factor? Its a load of rubbish, they didn't come and they won't come, simple as that.

And adjusting our kick off times for half hearted supporters such as Chris Brown is a joke. Start with keeping your CURRENT fan base happy rather than alienating them in the hope of attracting a few soccer fans. The world doesn't revolve around football - there are thousands of other sports fans who have no interest in football so why we have to panda to a minoirty who choose football over RL is beyond me. No other teams do it so I don't know why we should start.

Problem is, our CURRENT base don't seem to be happy and it would appear that some are considering not buying ST's next year. Regardless of if this is because of the East Stand/KO Days/KO Times......blah blah blah, the club need to change their attitude to the fans we have AND how to attract new ones.
As for the bit in red, alas, the world does revolve around wendy ball and for those of us who have no interest in it, only a couple of thousand seem to either be aware or inclined to watch League. These "sports" fans are our target audience.
Lastly, as for the amateur/kids....I agree. We tried it before and for some reason, it didn't work. That said, I would still try it again and again and again and again rather than end the 2010 season with a 3,500 average AGAIN!
I don't care if the club were to use any of my ideas or just their own, but they have to do something and pretty sharpish. The 2010 season is about 20 weeks away.....that's only 100 working days and let's face it, the back office staff are overstretched as it is.
But, as usual, the club will leave it all to the last minute

After last Sat I am now in total agreement with this. Had the team been coming off near where I was sitting I would have been able to give them the booing they deserved. It would have been a first time ever for me.

Our current fan base aren't happy according to who? I've noticed a few people on here whining about the Stands but other than that nothing. I have noticed nobody complaining about playing on a Saturday. This is what was voted for and the best day for the majority (IMO). Surely you must agree that keeping CURRENT supporters happy is more important than trying to attract new ones who might not even come back?



Yes, and as I just posted, there are plenty of other sports fans who don't give a monkeys about football. I think you might find that a large proportion of RL fans have an active dislike towards football. Our sport very much goes against the concept of football and thats why people follow it. Changing our kick off time and day to allow for a few people to do both stinks.



Waste of time and money. Why would you rather try ideas that don't work just incase they might work? Shall we try another community day, and do it again and again and again, hoping that it works one time? Its a terrible idea for reasons discussed before and should not even be considered.

Ha, good point. Although I had evacuated my seat not to return by half time

See...that's what has happened in the past. The club have tried something, it didn't work and the club decided against marketing at all!
I agree that Paul Browns initiative to give amateur players ST's didn't work, but rather than dismiss it out of hand, why not investigate why it failed? I am sure that any advertiser would investigate why their campaign didn't work rather than just keep on trying different things until they get lucky. I can just see the global marketing team at P&G sitting around a list of ideas, blindfolded with a pin



The RFL showed the club how it should be done for the Manly game, but no lessons were learnt. This points to the almost arrogant answer given at the fans forum about "no money worries" and "everything being in hand"...we were fed a line at the time and a 5% drop in gates with lower gates against the so called big 4 than the average gates in the past point to nothing being done...well nothing that worked anyway.

I am like you listy, in that I will sit in the East, west, north or south as long as I get to see the team. I don't mind too much if away fans sit in allocated seats as long as those people who have been allocated them aren't at the game. I go for the game for the game, not leech or some nobody of BGT, but the club need to look at the entire package and find a solution.
Oh, by the way, the community day was the only one of the 4 "summer at the stoop" days that actually got us a result. 100+ Kids playing rugby on the pitch with their parents, siblings and mates in attendance seemed to do the trick.......maybe we should promote the community team to do the marketing job as well

Sorry, I actually meant the dancing day or whatever it was.

agreed......George Sampson didn't work and we were told there were loads of groups rehearsing for the dance-off on Saturday......er, 1 group I believe. Great bit of marketing.....really well thought out.
Southampton FC were a big football team, the SPL is a sellers market, The Brit Oval......surrey and cricket are quite poplular, HKR and Rugby League go hand in hand......but Rugby League in a leafy west london/middlesex suburb

Good Luck PB, I think you are going to need it.

Our current fan base aren't happy according to who? I've noticed a few people on here whining about the Stands but other than that nothing. I have noticed nobody complaining about playing on a Saturday. This is what was voted for and the best day for the majority (IMO). Surely you must agree that keeping CURRENT supporters happy is more important than trying to attract new ones who might not even come back?

Dave you are wrong here. At the risk of being told I am being negative – I will say again a lot of fans have complained they are not happy and will not be renewing their season tickets next year. I am talking long term fans here not intermittent or fair weather fans. Some of these fans have personally supported players, others have enjoyed corporate hospitality, others have attended all games home and away. Many (23) are gold season ticket fans. If these people are not listened to the club stand a chance of loosing a vast amount of fan based income. I sent the list to the club and I also discussed it with them however I have no idea whether or not it will be acted upon. I hope the club take the initiative and contact these people who are quite happy to be contacted. Since I sent the list I have had other people come up to me about the state of things and I have asked them politely to contact the club directly. I will no longer be discussing things with the club, I have voiced the unhappiness of fans and I will no longer put myself in the position of being used as scape goat. I very much sympathise with some of the real issues fans have and I agree with them. This problem area must be addressed because if these fans stick to what they say with how they feel at the moment there will not be many fans next year. I have a very strange feeling the fans are not going to be happy with what is offered unless there has been a drastic change from a few weeks ago.

Yes, and as I just posted, there are plenty of other sports fans who don't give a monkeys about football. I think you might find that a large proportion of RL fans have an active dislike towards football. Our sport very much goes against the concept of football and thats why people follow it. Changing our kick off time and day to allow for a few people to do both stinks.

You are being naïve here. I used to attend football every week and there were a number of us who were football non league supporters and would go to the football on a Saturday and rugby on a Sunday. The band of about 40 people that would attend regularly from my non league area has dwindled to approx. four. There are a lot of football clubs out there that are not league clubs and these people are the ones who would attend both games. You will never convert a league football fan to choose us above their football team not matter whether you play Saturday or Sunday but I believe there is a market for non league fans. Personally I don’t care which day it is.

Do we still offer a discount for the unemployed? In today’s market it may be something we should be doing if it is not already being done. Lot’s of people are affected by the credit crunch and losing jobs. A cheap afternoon out at the rugby may well appeal to those with a very limited income.

Your "inside info" is very vague. You say some gold season ticket holders are unhappy. Firstly, why? Why are they offloading their season tickets? And secondly, who can blame them for being bothered? They are paying the most money. There are several hundred other season ticket holders - any evidence as to what they think or are we just going to say because the Gold Season ticket holders are unhappy then everybody must be? How many season ticket holders who are not gold season ticket holders hold this opinion that they won't be renewing, and why?

I don't think I am being naive at all, my experience of Rugby League supporters tells me that we should be aiming AWAY from football supporters, not trying to desperately accomodate for them.

I think unemployed discounts are bizzare tbh.

If 1 season ticket holder is unhappy, in my opnion, that is one too many! We don't have the fan base to be able to afford to lose anyone.....let alone a top dollar paying fan.

This brings up the Customer Services Management at Harlequins Rugby League.........oh, sorry, they don't have any CRM....

As for your experience of RL fans and the fact that we should be aiming away from football fans? I find that bizzare

I'll take cash from anyone who wants to watch the game and given we are having trouble attracting anyone to our games, to exclude a large group of sports fans would seem to be a bit odd!

Move the games to Sunday and there is 1 season ticket holder unhappy right here. Swings and roundabouts.



I would take cash from anyone too and don't care who follows us but making them our number 1 target is ridiculous.

BTW I think we are placing far too much emphasis on these Gold Season ticket holders. Its almost like they are the only ones that matter and the rest of the peasants and their views don't matter as the Gold Season ticket holders spend the most money. Load of rubbish. 23 Gold Season ticket holders equates to what, 60 "regular" season ticket holders? I'd sooner hear the views of the 60 tbh, especially as the 60 are the ones that are paying amounts that new supporters might be prepared to pay and enjoy a matchday experience identical to the walk up supporter.

We get poor crowds.
We get poor crowds on a Sunday.
We get poor crowds on a Saturday.
On some Sundays we have had better crowds than some Saturdays, but they've still been poor.
On some Saturdays we have had better crowds than some Sundays, but they've still been poor.

Debating this is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. It fails to address the real problem.

-Having said that (I'm prepared to turn up anyday, even Thursday evening) I feel Saturday's are clearly best for two reasons People stay longer on the day, spend more in the bar etc. - so more revenue opportunities.

Yep. Plus travel is far better.

But no doubt the Gold Season ticket holders will be unhappy for some reason so they club should change it for them as they are throwing their toys about threatening to cancel their tickets because they can't be @rsed anymore



(Apologies if you are one of the sane Gold Season ticket holders).

I never said it was only gold season ticket holders all I said was 23 of the complaints were from them. Maybe I was wrong to give the number of their complaints, for this I apologise. They were the minority of complaints and they are not throwing toys out of the pram they have as much right to be unhappy as you have to be happy with what is going on and your abuse does not help matters. No I will not divluge the source from where all the compalints came. This was given to me in confidence and handed to the club in the same way. All I am trying to do is let you know things are not all as easy and smooth as you would like to believe. The fundamental and basic things are going wrong and these must be addressed. Like I said I don't care what the club do, at the moment I will be there in my seat next year no matter which day they play but until things are better I will not spend as much of my heard earned cash.

as someone who pays when he has to and otherwise uses connections to get in for nothing, I feel slightly uneasy getting into a "class war" over the cost of the Gold ST as against peasants like Listy....but hey, why the hell not.
£300+ x 20 is £6,000 + residual income. Replacing it, with say students, would mean finding 60 punters, with less residual income. Makes perfect sense to me..................NOT!

Bottom line is that we do not have enough ST holders to be able to afford to lose 1. Yes, some prefer Sundays, others Saturdays, but the club need to bite the bullet now and make a decision. If we stick with Saturdays, then fine. If it was the winning day in the clubs vote, fine again and it should be stuck with.
What some people are annoyed at, to the extent where they may not renew is the perceived lask of interest from the club once they have our cash. Stewarding has been terrible this year. I, like you listy, don't get too bothered by the chaos, but others do, especially when they have paid top dollar for their seats.
The club seem to have taken the stance that we are only fans and what we say doesn't matter. Well, they are nearly right...in that we are THEIR only fans and therefore they should listen and respond. Not saying they have to do everything we say, but if......say 100+ ST holders were to drop out next year, well, tell me what club wouldn't worry about losing 10% of their ST income.

Agree with GF that's where I was trying to come from, the unease needs to be addressed now not next season, we can't afford to loose any fans never mind season ticket holders.

I sit in the L&L area.......for what it is worth, in my opinion:

Saturdays are the best match day, due to ease of travel, being able to enjoy the matchday, socialise in the bar, no work next day etc etc.

Sundays are hard work, travel is screwed 9 times out 10, restricts the above social aspects, work on Monday.

I dislike the East stand and think that home fans should move back to the LV(ex Lexus). Much better for game day atmosphere, better view and a better proposition for attracting new fans. Let the away fans sit in the West stand as before and close North/South ends. I don`t believe the `SKY` reasons given to us for having to move into the West stand.

Regarding the stands, if money is the issue don`t open the bar under the LV stand......those desperate for a half time drink can get one from the vendors that side of the ground. It cannot cost much to provide stewards as we are currently policing two sides of the ground anyway.

We need to do something to make it easier to bring and sit with guests and potential new fans. As has been suggested by others, why not make the LV seating unallocated and even out all the ST price bands......so if you want a particular position/seat you just need to get there early.

Make it as easy as you can for punters turning up on the day, so they just pay on the turnstile and go to their respective side of the ground.

Look again at the discounts being offered to youngsters and pensioners and make sure a season ticket is an attractive option. If we want to discount tickets to amateur clubs/players then fine.

Stop wasting time, effort and money on the stupid X Factor gimmicks........get the kids teams out on the pitch at half time.

Around half way through the season PB said that the club would continue to play around with seating to see what does/does not work......hopefully they have reached the conclusion that the whole ticket price and seating arrangements need a complete overhaul. Bits of what we do reflect the RU ticketing approach........but we do not have the luxury of a full stadium every game........they need to come up with some radical ideas that will help our fan base grow by simplifying arrangements, not creating obstacles.