So it looks like "Powell out" is the answer then?

In the short term, possibly. For the long term, unlikely.

Unless the person in charge of recruitment is competent (ours hasn't been for long before Powell arrived) and you have a functioning academy, then you can fetch in who you like as coach, it won't make much difference.

I'm overlooking the Mediterranean as I type, so yes, I'd say things are OK..

Just to challenge that point.

Leigh signed a number of players from us and, therefore it follows that, these players were previously recruited by us. These players appear to be performing at Leigh. This would indicate recruitment is not to blame in this instance.

I think the interesting thing to watch with Leigh, is can they maintain these standards long term, or is this a one season bounce, which most clubs have had at some point in the last 20 years?

The only clubs who seem to maintain any consistency are those with good academy systems and its been almost non existent for any side reliant on outside recruitment to find consistent success.

Just out of interest with Leigh, has Lam been given full control over recruitment, or is there a Fitzpatrick type figure roaming the RL circles identifying and budgeting for their signings?

Are we settled on Fitzpatrick being the recruiter then? Seems to be a variety of opinions on this, but the only thing on the record to my knowledge are the statements from both Powell and Fitzpatrick back in 2021 when they confirmed Powell would have full responsibility for recruitment and retention.

Yeah this is relevant to Wires71's point as well about those players playing well for Leigh. Lots of the players we would class as being overall disappointing signings had a spell where they looked good for us, before they start treading water. We'll see what happens with Leigh - are they going to establish themselves as a new force, or will this be like when Widnes came up under Neil Kelly and had a good first season or like when Salford have had the odd good season and then fallen away.

Also on the academy point: the clubs that always win Grand Finals are the clubs with the best record of producing quality players through their own academy who can be top SL players for a decade or so. But those only account for a few of their first team. They also have to recruit from outside like everybody else, they recruit from other SL clubs and the NRL, and they have a better hit rate of good signings than we do.

Quote ="Barbed Wire"Are we settled on Fitzpatrick being the recruiter then? Seems to be a variety of opinions on this, but the only thing on the record to my knowledge are the statements from both Powell and Fitzpatrick back in 2021 when they confirmed Powell would have full responsibility for recruitment and retention.'" KF likes telling the world he was the genius behind the Ashton signing. He was tipped off to him by a scout (George Williams' Dad), went to watch him and then dealt directly with the Swinton owner to agree the deal. So he was responsible then in 2019. Source https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... n-26381995

Quote ="Barbed Wire"Are we settled on Fitzpatrick being the recruiter then? Seems to be a variety of opinions on this, but the only thing on the record to my knowledge are the statements from both Powell and Fitzpatrick back in 2021 when they confirmed Powell would have full responsibility for recruitment and retention.'" KF likes telling the world he was the genius behind the Ashton signing. He was tipped off to him by a scout (George Williams' Dad), went to watch him and then dealt directly with the Swinton owner to agree the deal. So he was responsible then in 2019. Source https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... n-26381995

Quote ="Wires71"KF likes telling the world he was the genius behind the Ashton signing. He was tipped off to him by a scout (George Williams' Dad), went to watch him and then dealt directly with the Swinton owner to agree the deal. So he was responsible then in 2019. Source https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... n-26381995'" I appreciate that, but that tale pre-dates the article from April 2021 in which Powell and KFP confirm that Powell will have “total control” over recruiting, the article goes on to add that Powell was brought in and announced so early so he could make the decision on whether to keep Toby King, Blake Austin etc. before the May deadline for out of contract players to talk with other clubs.

Quote ="Wires71"KF likes telling the world he was the genius behind the Ashton signing. He was tipped off to him by a scout (George Williams' Dad), went to watch him and then dealt directly with the Swinton owner to agree the deal. So he was responsible then in 2019. Source https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... n-26381995'" I appreciate that, but that tale pre-dates the article from April 2021 in which Powell and KFP confirm that Powell will have “total control” over recruiting, the article goes on to add that Powell was brought in and announced so early so he could make the decision on whether to keep Toby King, Blake Austin etc. before the May deadline for out of contract players to talk with other clubs.

Well if KFP signed Ashton and since then it’s been all DPs doing then it’s fair to say all is forgiven KFP….get rid of Powell and get your hands back on recruitment.

I wouldn’t go that far, we’ve had considerable failures both sides of Powell’s appointment. I think it’s further evidence that a Director of Rugby would be a wise investment. The same person recruiting the coaches and players that fit the puzzle that the club is trying to put together.

I'd imagine in a salary capped sport, it's almost impossible that one man has total control over recruitment.

I'd reckon it would have to be the case of the coach & director of Rugby being in very close discussion - Coach tells DofR what type of style he's looking to play, gives a long list of players he'd like in order to play that style and then DofR goes off and plays fantasy football, compiling a squad from the coach's list, while keeping within confines of the cap.

No disrespect to the individuals concerned, but I'm 99.9% sure that the likes of Russell or Minikin wouldn't have been anywhere near the top of Powell's wanted list - They merely fitted within the salary cap.

If you look throughout SL, most squads are padded out with very average players, so ultimately its quite difficult to pin any problems on one person - you could nail the coach for not making the most of his squad, but can also blame the DofR for not signing the right players from the list, and also the club in general for not finding the best youngsters to feed the first team from the academy.

Wasn’t the recruitment of Russell just based on Ratchford telling Powell that Russell was looking for a job? Now I don’t think Russell is a poor signing for the money he is on (reportedly peanuts) but he should be playing as a last resort and the wing spot taken up by blooding an academy prospect - Josh Lynch/Jack Darbyshire.

I don’t buy this nonsense that fans would get on the back of the youngster should they make a lot of errors. Some fans might but I think on the whole fans would see the bigger picture.

I was hoping for a coach with more bottle in this regard but Powell’s tactics are frequently cowardly.

Genuine question. If, in the future, we become, as seems possible, exempt from relegation, do you reckon the fans would put up with 3 or 4 years of finishing bottom or thereabouts, if it meant we could blood far more youngsters and then eventually have a side which can be successful, if that's what it had to take?

If success was guaranteed at the end of 3/4 rubbish seasons then yes I think everyone would snap your hand off. We’ve had 67 of them, another 4 wouldn’t hurt.

If you look at Russell then, against Thewlis and Ashton (Plan A), the style of play is obviously to have pace on the wings. Russell is the polar opposite, not a lot of pace, not really a winger if we’re honest, but more of a workhorse ball carrier who is really effective coming away from the line making hard yards. So, either Fitzpatrick got him because he’s cheap and that coach has him forced upon him, or the plan/preference on style goes out of the window when someone shows an interest at a good price.

The same could be said of Fitzgibbon, who doesn’t really fit the mould of the current second row style.

We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress

We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress

In the interim, before we change the academy set up, I would like to see the players we have playing to the best of their ability. This is not currently happening.

Quote ="Deus Dat Incrementum"We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress'" Perfect, nailed on. With the money we've lavished and wasted on Hollywood signings, vanity projects, has-beens and non-entities we could have funded an elite academy and lured the best amateur talent in Britain and France tp the club and built a legacy.

Quote ="Deus Dat Incrementum"We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress'" Perfect, nailed on. With the money we've lavished and wasted on Hollywood signings, vanity projects, has-beens and non-entities we could have funded an elite academy and lured the best amateur talent in Britain and France tp the club and built a legacy.

I think you're being harsh on Russell there.
He asked the club to give him a chance to prove himself (via Ratchford) and signed on a (allegedly) low salary - and the original intention was that he would be used as back up, but his form over winter warranted a starting role - ahead of Thewlis.
Matty was ill days before the first match and hence Thewlis started.

Matty may not be the fastest in the Wire squad, but I think he'd give everyone except Ashton a run for their money - certainly over short and medium distances.
For me signing him was a no-brainer as a back up. He's experienced and is a decent finisher. He's a good returner of the ball too.
His major weakness is/was dealing with the high ball, and the first time he was with us he couldn't handle it and went downhill. His head was all over the place. (This was reported in an interview he gave last year).
I've not seen that weakness exploited too much this year.
Wing is his best position in my view.
He's sorted his mental state out in the years away from Warrington and has come back a much more mature player.

Make no doubt about it, the future is Thewlis and Ashton but you'll always need 'the Russells' of this world in a squad.
He certainly wasn't forced on the team by anyone.

No team has spent 3 or 4 years of finishing near the bottom with youngsters then their youngsters suddenly become good and they win the title. Wigan, Saints, Leeds didn't do that. If you're finishing near the bottom with a load of youngsters then those youngsters probably aren't very good.

The issue with young players is are they good enough. A lot of home grown Wire players have had 50+ first team games with us and never turn into players who can influence SL games, they then spend the rest of their careers at smaller clubs or in the lower leagues. Those guys would not have had so many games if they'd been at Wigan, Saints or Leeds because there is always more talent coming up the production line so less good home grown players get moved on more quickly. Wigan didn't look at Matty Russell and say if we give this kid 4 seasons in the first team he might become the next Radlinski.

When this question about blooding youngsters came up once before I looked through our season records to see if there were any eras where we were more willing to give youngsters a shot. Cullen did - early on he brought back guys like Sibbit, Mark Gleeson and Warren Stevens, he had Riley in the first team aged 17, Penny at 18, even when we were starting to load up on stars he was pushing through guys like Pickersgill and Cooper.

The other time when we did this was the mid/later Tony Smith era where we brought through a lot of young players: GO'B, Currie, Patton, Toby and George King, Rhys and Ben Evans, Ormsby, Dwyer, Laithwaite.

The thought experiment to consider is if we'd basically kept all those guys together and made them the core of the first team, would they have been any better over the next few years than the team we had with Steve Price which made several finals and won the Challenge Cup...?

I agree it is not the coach dropping balls or throwing stupid passes. What concerns me however is the cause of those problems and lack of seif/team belief seems to be the root cause. This was the case last season as well but was put down to bad apples/ off contract players etc. This esaeoson the coach largely has his stamp on the squad but the same problem of lack of belief rears its head and that is where a good coach earns his corn. Strikes me the coach can see the problem but not the answer. I am very concerned that this season is going to descend into ignominy (but hopefully not relegation). Were I in charge I would be lining up a replacement and giving him the final 1/3 of this season to bed in.

I think the club have had a lack of mental resilience for many years and I'm not sure any coach has been able to overcome that.
This was raised (iirc) in the TS years during the playoffs and after GF losses.

I hate to say it but Wigan and Saints have a built-in resilience - have had it for many years. It's something throughout tne club, not just with the 1st team.
But it can be 'lost' - just ask Leeds and Bulls.

If Matty Peet or Paul Wellens were our coach would we suddenly have that resilience? I think not.
It's not down to one person.

I don't disagree but where is it? Does it permeate all the performance team or wider?

Good point - I simply don't know.