I don't bother taking stats at face value too much as they can be misleading, as an example the following scenario from a kick off.

When the opposition restart the game from a try or from a normal kick off a prop can quite often gain a lot of easy yardage, its normally 20 - 30 yards after the fullback has handed the ball onto him or he's taken it from the restart himself.

Quite a lot of the time with us you will get Brett Hodgson taking the ball from a restart and he will angle left or right and give it to one of our big backs to return the ball like Matt King or Joel Monaghan, given that James Graham is saints main metre maker i'd presume that he returns the ball quite a lot from kick offs whether thats him taking the ball himself or a back like Wellens hands the ball onto him.

Their is no question that James Graham has been the brest british prop for a number of years now, his work rate is unreal and he's the main go too player when saints are looking for yardage.

With us we don't rely on the one prop to make our main yards, we have plenty of other good players in our pack and backline that can make us good yards. James Graham's stats don't suprise me at all as he basically carries saints at times when their looking for yards, Tony Smith has built a good team here where we don't rely on one player for anything as we have become a very good team with team being the operative word.

Yeh some will say that were heavily reliant on Lee Briers but isn't that the case with most teams if they lose their main playmaker, Huddersfield arn't the same team without Brough, Wigan wouldn't be the same team without Sam Tomkins efforts with ball in hand and saints wouldn't have been the same force without Sean Long during their good years, they woukld still have been very good but obviously not as good when you lose a player like Sean Long at his peak.

Anyway, its just opinions. From what ive seen of both Garreth Carvell and James Graham this season so far i'd take Carvell over Graham. I'm not saying here that one or the other is the better overall prop as thats a different debate, the answer on that one would obviously be James Graham, its about this season and i'd certainly take Carvell on his great form this year.

The Super League stats don't show the number of minutes played by a prop so it's hard to compare who is the best without all the facts. Coaches generally seem to give different roles to different players, so Tony Smith might be more pleased with Carvell making 80 metres and 20 tackles in a game than he is with Wood making 110 metres and 30 tackles in a game. There's a lot more to playing at prop than the stats can give. A good mix of different types of prop works best.

I can only use Wigan as an example because I've seen the players and the games. Wigan's best prop this season according to most fans has been Lee Mossop. Statistically he isn't as good as Jeff Lima, but when watching fans clearly see him making more of an impact.

Lima is statistically better because he's a workhorse, his job is to make as many tackles as possible and to keep taking the ball up again and again. He gets dominated in the tackle quite a lot, which means a high amount of metres isn't always as effective as it could be. To compliment Lima Wigan need a prop who will impact in both attack and defence, making big carries and effective tackles and that's where Mossop comes in. Mossop tends to win the collision and it makes a big difference.

It seems to me Wood and Carvell are similar to Lima and Mossop in how they are used by both clubs, and statistically there's not that much difference either. I'm not sure I could choose the best out of Wood and Carvell because I think they both benefit from the work the other one does. The pack is very much a team effort.

James Graham has very impressive stats, but unless there's a powerful strong running prop alongside him that impressive work rate isn't really making much impact for the team. There also aren't any stats that show whether a player wins the collision, gets quick play the ball which benefits the team during the set, whether they are a good ball player (if a prop steps up to the line then passes to put a player through a gap, all it looks like statistically is a prop making a poor carry.), there aren't stats to show how many times they force an error in defence, or how much their presence and work on the pitch can lift a team. Also, as Rob Wire mentioned, kick off returns and drop out returns give props lots of easy metres that can make the stats misleading.

I think 20 - 30 yards might be over-stating it a bit for a prop return from a kick-off. Actually making the 20m line is a very, very good effort.

I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years.

If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.

Quote ="JWP"I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years. If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.'" If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?

Quote ="JWP"I must admit, I am a little surprised me Graham's stats. I knew he got through a tonne of work but that's quite unvbelievable when you just look at the numbers, hopefully the move to the NRL will remove the burden a little or he could be a 28 year old retired prop, when I'd like to see him for many more years. If he's put that shift in, and Saints are still fighting just to make the top four, just where would they have been without him, unreal.'" If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?

Quote ="Paul Youane"If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?'" That's incredible, it's a two man pack. The likes of Flannery, Perry have done naff all though have they. I looked at Flannery's stats, he's averaging about the same metres per game as John Wells, Me & Rod Hull.* *Rod Hull is miles ahead at offloading, naturally.

Quote ="Paul Youane"If you think Graham's are unbelievable have a look at Roby's next to them: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... 1&hp2=1885 Does make you wonder what the f*** have the rest of Siants' pack been doing all season?'" That's incredible, it's a two man pack. The likes of Flannery, Perry have done naff all though have they. I looked at Flannery's stats, he's averaging about the same metres per game as John Wells, Me & Rod Hull.* *Rod Hull is miles ahead at offloading, naturally.

Being injured.

Don't start this sillyness again now, they've been as injured as every other side.

I was actually at that Grand Final and I can comfortably assert that nobody turned up in the redvee that night. Jammer is a fabulous player but even he cannot win a Grand Final all by himself. That he made a fool of himself was undeniable. However, he shouts at everyone on the pitch - his own team mates as much as anyone - he is a lippy Scouser and that is just who he is. Sometimes he keeps a lid on it towards the refs, other times he doesn't. Without that fire he wouldn't have been half the player he has been and continues to be.


There have been times when that has been the case this season and personally I put it down to the same problem that Eastmond has had (but Graham has been more professional than Eastmond) - he is distracted by his impending move. However, you have also seen the rest of the pack step up and perform when they have been fit, present and determined enough. For example, TP was absolutely immense for us against Hull last week. That doesn't mean Jammer was rubbish. He worked just as hard as ever. But another pack man stood up. That wasn't happening last season or indeed the season before.

James Graham is indeed hardy, of that there is no doubt and it is that quality, along with those moments when his passing is exquisite, that we are going to miss the most. We don't have as durable a player as him in our team. But I don't agree that it is his durability which is what makes him stand out. However, I don't think we will agree on this so it may be best to agree to disagree!

graham plays more minutes than carvell, and also we have a full pack that shares the workload, you have roby and graham, thats it. its all well and good that he has amazing stats now but when hes 28 and burnt out and fades off before he turns 30 well that isnt so good.

If we're going off stats, then you're wrong, because the metres per carry shows:

Graham - 7.08m per carry
Carvell - 7.54m per carry

HTH

Leftfield

What would James' stats be like if he played for Wire or Hudds? (don't get in to a silly debate about cap etc)

I bet they'd be completely different.

Although Graham rounds each carry up to 10m by taking two steps off the mark each time.

IN YOUR OPINION, WHICH MEANS VERY LITTLE.

all wigan trained! goalpostchangingfantasticum!

wtf does it matter, your glory team of the 80's consisted of many players who were bought for cold hard cash!

i now am getting sick myself of all this bickering(i never thought i'd say that!)

leave us alone will yah for a bit, stay on your own board, cos i'm so bored of inbred ramblings!

Don't know if this has been mentioned in an earlier post because i couldn't be d trawling through all the other pages but statisically Paul Wood is your best prop.

He beats Cravell and Morley in every department.

All I did was say Jeff Lima.....

How about we think of this from another angle.

We know Carvell makes su0per human metres per carry.

But stats are clouding the issue. where we need instead look is, maybe, peer awards.

Graham was a man of steel... a while a go.

How many MOM on Sky have each maan won/ times showed.

How many games have they been on the winning team?

These too are flawed but are just as adaptable as stats.

This will most likely always be personal preference. And Roby isn't as good as Monas.

Yeah - your right jd.

I'd be happy with either Graham or Carvell in our '4'.

Carvell has stepped into the void left by Moz missing out and is really showing how good he is.

Is the irony of Mossop lost on you?

Who cares as for as am concerned gaz is having a excellent run of form. I really don't give a fig about graham or any second rate prop from wigan as long as the wire props do the business

I'm sorry, ladies and gents, but this arguement has really got nothing to say now

We think Carvell's great, Stains think Ginger Testicles is great

They're both briliant (although, Graham is clearly better, BUT, he is a bigger nob than Jeremy Kyle, whilst Carvell is more of a "level headed" player)

Stats, are very over-rated, and are just a tool used by clubs on a Monday morning.You can massage any stat to get to the point YOU want.
I can see with my own 2 eyes, that Graham is clearly the best British prop. Carvell, is a VERY close second.

One thing's for sure though, after Graham, Stains props are..... (insert your insult here).....I mean, Katy Perry...hahaha

.....and I don't know why Worriers fans are even bothering to enter the debate...their props are streets behind ours.....stats or not

We will see in a couple of weeks time. For the moment though, the key stat is that our props have helped us drop fewer points than Wire.

while ours have helped us win more games including dominating yours in your own back yard

Graham under TS's tutelage? Now that would be a player.