Hardly a case of gross unfairness. Catalans had a far better chance of making a success of SL than Widnes did, they had better finances in place and a better infrastructure and far better management, The management at Widnes during that time was really shoddy, they had two pretty good coaches, Kelly and Endacott, who were both undermined by their board and they shot themselves in the foot. Ordinarily they wouldn't have gone down as the second bottom team in the league, but they were in shape for relegation, they won 1 from their last 12 games that season and they were copping some hammerings.

Widnes had four years in SL, they never finished higher than 7th and were second from bottom in two of those four seasons. In comparison, Catalans have had four years in SL, they've had a 3rd place league finish, a Final Eliminator playoff finish and a Wembley final.....they've had stable management and been financially healthy.

Whilst I do agree that Widnes has a great heritage in rugby league, you can't be given favours on sentiment alone. If it hadn't been for Catalans coming in and Widnes had survived they would have been dead ducks in 2006 with a much stronger Castleford coming up with a stable board and good coach in Terry Matterson....Widnes would have certainly dropped in 2006.

Fair enough although a load of speculation for the 06 season as I am sure you would admit. Would you be so relaxed if it was WWRLFC who were 'sacrificed' for the greater good? Let's not forget Warrington were not pulling up any trees in the SL era at that time either.

Anyway my point was that it was unfair in a sporting context rather than this "franchiseability" crap the "visionaries" at the helm of the RL consider. The status quo previously provided for the bottom team to be relegated, this was changed to bottom 2 sides to effect a fast track for Catalans. This is clearly anti-competitive and would never be allowed in football at Hackney marshes level never mind the top flight of professional rugby league.

I know if it was Warrington who were the team with "great heritage in RL" who suffered like Widnes did we would have been up in arms and bitter to this day.

Whilst we are on the subject I genuinely would be interested to hear your views on the benefit of both Harlequins and Crusaders in SL when compared against the obvious downsides of diluting Sky TV income and the gate receipt loss to each and every club that plays against them.

Sorry to butt in and I know its early days but Crusaders average home attendance is higher than that of Salford, Castleford, Catalans, Harliquins, Wakefield & Hull KR.

And they brought as many, if not more than Bradford.
Crusaders will pay their way this season, Quins are on a terrible run.

in every aspect on and off the field

Fair do's. Only 2 home games though in Leeds and Hull bolstered by a lot of furore, free tickets and zealous Red Hall support.

Let's consider the average attendance for the teams you mention in 2009 shall we.

Catalans - 9,159
Hull KR - 8,501
Castleford - 7,489
Wakefield - 5,892
Salford - 4,467
Crusaders - 3,668
Harlequins - 3,436

You make my "expansionism doesn't work as there is not the support base to justify it not least when you consider you are taking the place of the likes of Leigh, Widnes etc" point for me. The farce surrounding your move from the Valleys to 32.8 miles from Widnes doesn't help either.

I wish you no harm (if you are a Crusader) but honestly don't think you deserve a place in the elite league of northern hemisphere RL when there are so many better qualified teams staking a place before you.

Bradford 10,434
Crusaders 11,113


Factor in the cheap tickets, day/time of game, and Sky TV and I think you will find the difference accounted for. I stood in the West for the Crusaders game and it was mostly Wire if we are being honest.

I could see pretty clearly how many were Crusaders and it was a close run thing between them and Bradford.
Also the south was no where near full for the Crusaders but Bradford it was packed.

It's really unfair to compare 2009 with this year as yes, Bridgend was a disaster.
There were NO free tickets given out for the Leeds game and for the Hull game they actually sold more tickets than turned up, the weather in north wales for people travelling up until lunch time was awful.
I think we should be expanding 30 miles at a time, satellite expansion just does not work here, we aren't australia.

I agree with moderate expansion like you suggest. Remember we had a strong team in Sheffield until the powers that be shafted them royally.

I think the South packed for Bradford and not for Crusaders may be due to the cheap tickets. I never have a season ticket but turn up when I feel (which is usually all the time). I was in the south for Bradford and the West for Crusaders as it was £14 less for me and the missus. I wonder how many other wire fans without season tickets did the same?

Anyway if Brigend was a disaster (and I don't disagree) where does that put Harlequins?

up sh*t creek tbh
Something SERIOUSLY needs to change there, shame because they're packed full of young english players.
Maybe we should be allowing them time like Cas in 08 and maybe they'll have the same turnaround in fortune, can't see it though.

You will be heartened to know that it is the 30th anniversary of the expansionist experiment in London this year....

To me they're the big success story of expansion during the Super League era, but I don't really get the point of this thread. Who exactly isn't showing their fans enough respect?

BTW I'd call them Catalan rather than French.

I'll reiterate, that it's not that they are not shown respect but i was putting it out there that they actually deserve more credit than they get

I didn't get the respect thing either. You are also bob-on about the Catalan thing too. I've spent a lot of time in Spain and know that in the Catalan region they do not consider themselves Spanish.

The title did indicate "more respect", with respect.

No Harm or offence taken for I am I Wire fan.

I do agree that there figures maybe a bit favorable but i'd much rather see a club with a 6k+ attendance bolstered by cheap / free tickets, than 3k paying full price. Salford and Quins attendances have been nothing short of pathetic so far this year and they've had more time than Crusaders to create a fan base. I for one was against Crusaders inclusion into the league over Widnes last year, but have been impressed with how they've developed so far this year taking into account the move to Wrexham, I just hope they can keep it up.

i respect that

Young, English players who just aren't good enough.

Bingo!

duplicated post

We were 4th in the league so deserving of our place. If however this had come in for 2003, and it was the teams struggling in 2002 who faced the chop, then I would have accepted us getting the boot then because we were not really making a good case for ourselves.

However the rider here is that my view on Catalans, is different from my view on other "expansion" ideas, which I generally view as a waste of time, ie Paris St Germain, Gateshead, Celtic Crusaders. Catalans, or Toulouse are a different kettle of fish as they already have an established rugby league history and more to the point, they have good infrastructure financial backing from the local business community.



Yes it is not strictly sporting, however what is fair in sporting terms, is not always the best option for the good of the game, eg Widnes spent money they didn't have in the late eighties chasing on field success, which they achieved, and were rightly acknowledged in the history of RL for it, but then when they went bust they risked the whole future of there being a RL club in Widnes. Wigan nearly suffered a similar fate. A franchising system which forces clubs to be run properly will be better for the future of the game, it will be interesting to see what happens in football, the purest version of a sporting meritocracy, they never have any kind of franchising its a case of winner takes all on merit, but are their clubs financially viable or is there trouble behind the scenes...we keep hearing that Arsenal are constrained for cash because of their stadium, Liverpool are constrained for cash, Man United are in masses of debt, Pompey are in administration....doesn't seem healthy for me, that sport needs to put some tough rules in place.

If Warrington were the team who suffered like Widnes did then my anger would not be directed against the games' administrators, but the Warrington board who had let us get into the state we did. I don't quite buy this idea that Widnes were sacrificed by the games' administrators....Castleford went down the year before Widnes did, and went down again the year after....and they have come up and done ok. Salford went down a couple of years before Widnes did, and went down a couple of years after Widnes did, and they came back up twice as well. If Widnes had been well managed and well run they would have got back into SL through the promotion route and in all honesty they would have beaten off Celtic for that franchise application in 2008, had they not seriously messed up their finances the year before. The RFL didn't make Widnes manage itself badly.



I think they are a waste of time, especially Crusaders. Harlequins have had one thing going for them which is that during the years they have been in SL they have generally been quite well managed on the field, ie they haven't been constant relegation fodder, often they've been playoff contenders and they've had some very good overseas signings. If Widnes had been like that, then they wouldn't have been "sacrificed" by the RFL in 2005, they were sacrificed because they were crap.

My view on SL is that there are too many teams and I would cut some away, starting with chopping those two and if they aren't financially viable as well, Wakefield with it. Salford have got some potential depending on the stadium but if that turns out to be a white elephant then I'd have them on notice as well. A 10-12 team league would be best IMO. If Toulouse have got the cash to be viable then I'd certainly make space for them.

I agree with a lot of your posts but I just can't agree with the last portion of that.
I'd be tempted to move the Quins franchise out of the 25 or even further south, but I honestly think we need a southern franchise or two.
A ten team league would be disastrous, a complete step backwards.

I agree with a lot of the post also. People cite Catalan as an expansion when, in reality, it is an amalgamation of an existing hot bed of pro RL into another one.

We need to face facts the RL, despite the meritous efforts of many individuals, has singularily failed in achieving anything like producing a satellite team worthy of inclusion in top flight GB rugby league. This is because there is not the will of consumers in these areas to attend in any sustainable number. We need to put RL into perspective. One sobering thought is that Old Trafford regularily attracts more people than the entire programme of SL matches (maybe even all RL matches) put together.

It's a regional sport, a fantastic one which we all love, but regional all the same. I, for one, don't understand what the clamour for national expansion is really all about.

Same applies for every sport in the UK when compared to the queens of wendyball, a passtime that absorbs 90% of the money, attention and media coverage available, to the detriment of real sport.

Sort of agree with your sentiment as I can tell you love your RL, but we need to face it we are in a small minority. Always have been.