That 88-89 side that finished 11th I would imagine had Steve Roach, Phil Blake, Les Davidson, and Les Boyd, but they didnt play the entire season due to NRL commitments, and Boyd was called back from retirement by Peter Higham (iirc).
Davidson and Blake were not allowed to play in the Maine Road Semi, so it was hardly a settled side.

At Maine road woods had to move to scrum half while a young inexperienced Rocky turner played stand off which made woods display all the better....

Week in week out For about ten years the pies 6& 7 was Gregory and Edwards and no on else..........that helps.....

why such a star studded side finished so low down the table I have no idea.......well if you ever saw Steve Roach play league games then the answer lies there somewhere.......

In fact we did well to get to wembley in 1990 with Woods Holden Boyd Roach Davidson and Blake leaving ....it gives me hope for this year..........

We didn't deserve to go in 1990.
In 1989 we did, all we needed was to draw saints or Widnes in the semi.
Alas history shows our fait.

Our league positions on paper look disappointing because they were disappointing, over that period we lost about half our league games. A lot of them were to lower table sides as well.

If we really had this great team, then why did we lose so often in the league?

As for the best pack you ever saw in RL ever, surely as Andy Gregory left then John Woods played behind this pack.

Woods behind the best pack ever with Des Drummond and Brian Johnson in the outside backs all led by the GB captain.....come on surely there should have been some top 3 finishes?? Were they resting players to try and win the end of season Premiership from 8th or something?

Its all a matter of opinion.
In my opinion I've never seen a better pack around that 2 year period. 88 and 89.

Boyd Tamati Jackson Davidson M Gregory Humphries Rathbone Roach in the cup games...he didn't wanna know in the league hence the poor league form??

I know in my heart of hearts that the draw of Wigan in 89 semi and the unavailability of Davidson and Blake cost us history.
I'm convinced Warrington would have beat Wigan in the CC final of 89 with them.

I truly believe Wigan wouldn't had become so dominant. I believe Warrington would had been equals with the monies of an 89 final.

If I could wish a pack, I would wish for that back.

If one good thing comes from this thread, it's reminded me why I hate the pies so much. Unfortunately I now can't get that Lydon drop goal out of my head!

If its any consolation bobby.
I don't consider the drop goal that caused it.
But the draw of the semi final in 1989.

Saints and Widnes were 2 average teams that made the semi together.
Wire only had to draw either one of them.
That's were our dream took the wrong course.

Wire made a real dig v Wigan but to us a Wire team without Davidson and Blake was akin to Wigan being without being without Shelford and Hanley.

If something come of it, Higham vowed never to sign short term Aussies again and a visit to Wembley in 1990 when on form since the departure of Greg Mackey we didn't deserve.

Saints got the wrong semi final draw that year of 1990!

A couple of years later we started signing unknown Welsh players instead and shrewd purchasing of youth from Oldham.

It gave us a false dawn in 1994/1995 with Davis but in truth we were on a very long slippery slope of demise.

That semi final draw in 1989 cost us big time!!!!
That's what I hate the most and always think 'WHAT IF?'

Quote ="rubber duckie"Its all a matter of opinion. In my opinion I've never seen a better pack around that 2 year period. 88 and 89. Boyd Tamati Jackson Davidson M Gregory Humphries Rathbone Roach in the cup games...he didn't wanna know in the league hence the poor league form?? I know in my heart of hearts that the draw of Wigan in 89 semi and the unavailability of Davidson and Blake cost us history. I'm convinced Warrington would have beat Wigan in the CC final of 89 with them. I truly believe Wigan wouldn't had become so dominant. I believe Warrington would had been equals with the monies of an 89 final.'" Warrington were not even close to Wigan at this time. Look at our 1988/89 season. 11th in the league. Started the season with three straight losses. Lost 7 out of 8 between December and January. Lost 6 out of 8 from March to finish the season. Where in any universe was this a team close to being challengers? As for our great cup runs: Lancashire Cup: beat Runcorn and Carlisle, knocked out by Salford John Player Special Trophy: beat Oldham and Bramley, knocked out by Widnes Challenge Cup: beat Halifax, Keighley and Hull KR, knocked out by Wigan So the only top division teams we beat in the cup were Halifax and Oldham. So Roach and this great pack, who saved their best for the cup, proved themselves against lower division teams in front of crowds of 3000 or so. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seaso ... mmary.html But hey maybe if only we'd got the Wembley money in 1989 that team could have gone on to dominate rugby ahead of a Wigan side that had Hanley, Edwards, Gregory, Bell, Hampson, Gill, Lydon, the Iros..... The side I get nostalgic about is the great team of Daryl Van de Velde that reached back to back Challenge Cup semi finals in 2000 and 2001 with a great pack that included Gee, Farrar, Nikau, McCurrie, Knott and Nikau. If only we had got past Bradford in one of those semis we would have won either of those finals....in 2000 we had smashed Leeds a few weeks before Murrayfield and in 2001 we smashed Saints just before Twickenham. As for John Woods and Paul Bishop or Rocky Turner I raise you Allan Langer and Lee Briers. And DVDVs side had guys like Kohe-Love, Hunte and Smyth that were prolific try scorers so more than a match for your Cullen, Darbyshire and Forster era. Who knows if only we'd won one of those cup semis DVDVs side could have gone on to dominate in place of Bradford or Saints.

Quote ="rubber duckie"Its all a matter of opinion. In my opinion I've never seen a better pack around that 2 year period. 88 and 89. Boyd Tamati Jackson Davidson M Gregory Humphries Rathbone Roach in the cup games...he didn't wanna know in the league hence the poor league form?? I know in my heart of hearts that the draw of Wigan in 89 semi and the unavailability of Davidson and Blake cost us history. I'm convinced Warrington would have beat Wigan in the CC final of 89 with them. I truly believe Wigan wouldn't had become so dominant. I believe Warrington would had been equals with the monies of an 89 final.'" Warrington were not even close to Wigan at this time. Look at our 1988/89 season. 11th in the league. Started the season with three straight losses. Lost 7 out of 8 between December and January. Lost 6 out of 8 from March to finish the season. Where in any universe was this a team close to being challengers? As for our great cup runs: Lancashire Cup: beat Runcorn and Carlisle, knocked out by Salford John Player Special Trophy: beat Oldham and Bramley, knocked out by Widnes Challenge Cup: beat Halifax, Keighley and Hull KR, knocked out by Wigan So the only top division teams we beat in the cup were Halifax and Oldham. So Roach and this great pack, who saved their best for the cup, proved themselves against lower division teams in front of crowds of 3000 or so. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seaso ... mmary.html But hey maybe if only we'd got the Wembley money in 1989 that team could have gone on to dominate rugby ahead of a Wigan side that had Hanley, Edwards, Gregory, Bell, Hampson, Gill, Lydon, the Iros..... The side I get nostalgic about is the great team of Daryl Van de Velde that reached back to back Challenge Cup semi finals in 2000 and 2001 with a great pack that included Gee, Farrar, Nikau, McCurrie, Knott and Nikau. If only we had got past Bradford in one of those semis we would have won either of those finals....in 2000 we had smashed Leeds a few weeks before Murrayfield and in 2001 we smashed Saints just before Twickenham. As for John Woods and Paul Bishop or Rocky Turner I raise you Allan Langer and Lee Briers. And DVDVs side had guys like Kohe-Love, Hunte and Smyth that were prolific try scorers so more than a match for your Cullen, Darbyshire and Forster era. Who knows if only we'd won one of those cup semis DVDVs side could have gone on to dominate in place of Bradford or Saints.

Top Trumps.

Phil Blake v Allan Langer...
Phil Blake.

John Woods v Lee Briers...
John Woods.


Although Langer was special he doesn't come close to what I saw Blake do.

As for Woods up against Briers, that is a wind up comparison and I wont bite.

Briers won three Challenge Cups and a league leaders shield with Warrington, Woods despite playing behind a stronger pack finished mid table or low table and only made progress in the cups when we played lower division teams.

So Briers for me.

.... I know you are on a deliberate wind up here, but Briers doesn't come close to Woods (or Andy Gregory, of whom this thread is about?)

Top Rugby League Players of All Time www.thetoptens.com/top-10-rugby-league-players/ John Woods # 26 Lee Briers not even on the list.

Top Rugby League Players of All Time www.thetoptens.com/top-10-rugby-league-players/ John Woods # 26 Lee Briers not even on the list.

Quote ="Builth Wells Wire"Top Rugby League Players of All Time www.thetoptens.com/top-10-rugby-league-players/ John Woods # 26 Lee Briers not even on the list.'" I think Briers will always be remembered by Wire fans as WIRE legend, a little like Parry Gordon or Mike Gregory, but Woods will be remembered by Rugby League fans, as a Rugby League legend.

Quote ="Builth Wells Wire"Top Rugby League Players of All Time www.thetoptens.com/top-10-rugby-league-players/ John Woods # 26 Lee Briers not even on the list.'" I think Briers will always be remembered by Wire fans as WIRE legend, a little like Parry Gordon or Mike Gregory, but Woods will be remembered by Rugby League fans, as a Rugby League legend.

John Woods was a Leigther through and through. He used to walk to Hilton Park on match days.
He was virtually retired when he played at Wilderspool.

He turned his back on domestic success but was well decorated internationally. He was a rugby league version of Matt Le Tissier.

Briers has TS to thank for his domestic fortune, his international honours speak volumes.

He ain't like a Parry Gordon or Mike Gregory to me.
Those two guys gave everything they had every time they played during their career at Warrington.
Lee Briers didn't.
To many with short memories. Thank you Lee for the 4 great seasons under TS and playing your part in the CC successes.
Before then I will reserve my thoughts to myself.

John Woods was THE finest all round rugby player , I have ever seen , he had everything ,he had speed , could kick tactically and kick goals , had a superb side step , could tackle , score tries from anywhere on the field , and was a Butts Bridger and Manc Roader to boot .He played most of his career in an Average Leigh side , but look at his wcoring record , in todays game he would be priceless.Charlie knows .

What I don't get is all this started with people saying Warrington had a side ready to kick on and dominate rugby league in place of Wigan, with the best pack we have ever had, but Andy Gregory left and then we fell away. Andy Gregory leaving was the difference supposedly.

But we replaced Gregory with one of the game's greats in John Woods and rapidly became a mid table mediocre side.....despite also adding Des Drummond



So regardless of Woods, Gregory or whatever does anybody have any explanation for why the sudden decline?

I think the crux of the problem for the Wires team of 86-89 was that they could beat anyone on their day (I happen to think if the touring kangaroos of 86 had given us a game, they'd have got the shock of their lives) but, despite having some wonderful players in their side, they had a habit of descending to the opposition's level. I can certainly remember that team turning in some abject performance at Barrow, Salford and Featherstone to name three.

Tony Barrow & Les Boyd as assistant turned us round and inspired some fantastic performances but if, for example, Graham Lowe had been our coach instead of Wigan's perhaps we'd have hit greater heights with that squad.

Who knows. Seeing those players in the P&B was worth the odd 11-10 defeat at Barrow anytime.

So basically, no different from the Van der Velde and Cullen eras.

VDV/Cullen side had no comparison to Phil Blake and the Boyd pack IMO

I fully understand your style of argument on here but you are begining to sound like the pie eaters that churn out stats as the be all and end all to any debate...like the 'meters made' stat as a true benchmark when comparing paring say Gil dudson to Adrian Morley.

like saying we added Des drummond so we should have been world beaters....my abiding memory of Des Drummond as a Wire player was his appaling service from his centres mainly Cullen and Joe Ropati so much so he played 16 games at the start of one season before he scored his first try, thats appaling.
Lets not forget at the start of this Era we had Reg Bowden as coach and in no way shape or form was he Graham Lowe and Tony Barrow was no John Monie. coaches do have an effect as Lee briers from 2009- 2013 will testify.

I think People who say we were close to dominating the game are using the wrong word. We were close to winining lots more, i think is the better term. Wire should have had a handsome Trophy haul in the 80's, the envy of most clubs infact. unfortunately [ithat[/i Wigan club was around so we got spanked in many a semi final and many a final by them.
I think because it was Wire getting spanked by them more so than any other club it gave us a bit of hope that we werent far off. but we actually were because we lacked consistency.
What we failed to do was what Halifax did for one season and Widnes did for two which was go toe to toe with Wigan during a league campaign.

but back to Andy gregory he cant have been all that.... after he left Warrington for Wigan, in his first full season Wigan Finished 3rd just 6 point above Wire, who you clearly thought were a bobbins side.......

That said while the 2011 side was special, rose tinted or not my glasses have me saying the 86-87 season was my favourite and I Went home and away to everywhere except the Boulevard.

The perfect thread for an interminable bore and his facts to show his feathers. SC wasn't there and is a deliberate heretic...get a grip son and realise empiricism is the only way! Wire were on the way, Andy g was a fat treacherous sh@t and John woods was something this game badly needs at present!

just wish gaz obrien was to be the next andy gregory...and myler or ratchford the next shaun edwards....

....and anyone of the rest of our squad you want to pick to be an Ellery Hanley.

I am always sad when a star player moves to pastures new but concede that professional Rugby League is a short career and players are entitled to seek the best for themselves bur Gregory's departure was a disgrace and a sad reflection on himself, Wigan and, ultimately. Rugby League itself.
I do not have too much knowledge of libel laws and will not elaborate but everyone knows or can research the saga of Gregory's transfer to Wigan which I think, should have been subject of a meaningful enquiry by the Rugby League but, as always, it was toothless in the face of a powerful club.
If Gregory later said "Look I went to Wigan for the money and glory. Maybe I handled it badly or was badly advised but I was entitled to make the best for myself" then I could understand but when given the opportunity to explain, he has tried to gloss over the whole thing thereby, in my view, compounding the situation.
As far as I am concerned neither he nor his ilk should be welcome in Warrington no matter how good they are.
Agree with the John Woods comments. At his peak he made the opposition look pedestrian. It is just a pity we had him for such a short time at the fag end of his career.
I thought Steve Roach came to Warrington on a sabbatical and was a liability.

Just a few points from me

Why we didn't kick on, from January 87 onwards?
Well, obviously Gregory leaving is the main reason. With him being the link from Boyd, Tamati, Jackson, Sanderson, Roberts, Gregory (that trips off the tongue like the National Anthem does to a patriot), to the likes of Johnson, Duane, Ropati and Drummond, his loss will be immesurable. As alluded to earlier, Woods was an offthecuff player, Gregory, an organiser, a distributor. They are different players. As good a SH Keith Holden was (and he WAS good, he wasn't a Gregory).

Another reason for the lack off kick on, was what we have now....a world class coach.
Tony Barrow was an old school shouter, a poor man's Alex Murphy, if you like. It was his first full time job, who then went onto Oldham a few years later. Not exactly Graham Lowe or John Monie, eh?
Barrow was then replaced by a very green Johnson.
Now these were both good men for our club, they weren't exactly knocking down the doors of opposition chairmen to get them to Wigan/Leeds/Saints or the NRL.

Sally has quoted a lot of stats in this thread. That's his prerogative, playing Devil's Advocate in this debate. The fact is, WE WERE THAT GOOD in that season, Gregory's defection absolutely FLOORED us in terms of confidence. Struggling to victories or stupid losses became the norm, when he left, as Warrington reverted back to type. I'm sure RubberDuckie, Morrisseyisawire, Biscuit and Teessidewire will back me up on this one.

Briers v Woods is a not even close for me. Briers wasted/coasted a chunk of his career. Yes, he won things in his twilight years, and Woods won precious little despite a glittering career, but there's more to life than winning trophies. Just ask anyone over the age of 60, who've been waxing lyrical over the last month since the death of Sir Tom Finney, and he won the square root of nothing.

If there was such a thing as time travel, Back To The Future would be set in the times of Woods and Tony Myler, who we hear was another genius, yet would get injured opening letters. It's a pity for me (and others), that I never got to see these players REGULARLY, when they were in their pomp.