For all those people clamouring to replace Smith, and I'd probably agree it's time to consider a change, at least come up with some names. There is only one name in SL currently who could [ipotentially[/i improve us and that is Darryl Powell. However, yes, Cas play some nice stuff but on the one occasion they reached a final they ............ bottled it. At least TS can point to a trophy cabinet that hasn't been gathering dust for a decade.

As for a clear out of players, again, if people want to get rid of Sandow (not quite sure why because last night even on one leg he straightened our attack and provided more menace than we had all game) then who would you replace him with? I'd hope we'd have learned a lesson from the Briers fiasco because Patton IS NOT ready to be a regular starter, and at a time when people are bemoaning our lack of quality and style getting shut of our most entertaining, innovative player seems a little backward.

If you want to shake up the playing staff, here's a few -

Bailey - waste of space. If people think Cox is lazy, take a long hard look here. One contribution last night, giving away a penalty. Doesn't even wind the opposition up any more.
Dodds - crocked. If we are prepared to start next season with another forward with suspect health then we deserve nothing.
Atkins - has enjoyed a career Indian Summer, but last night was the Ryan of old again.
Evans - I'm a fan (or as near as it seems he's likely to get) but we need to inject some growl into the backline and he isn't it
Penny - too many mistakes, still not good enough, and never going to be
Russell - not a winger, not strong enough at FB and despite plenty of strengths we can't keep shoehorning players in

Elsewhere, Westerman needs a big off-season and a bigger 2017. At the moment he's a fancy Paul Noone and he was a major flaw in our performance last night. Sam Wilde is two years off the first team. George King needs to find some grit - you're a prop not a lollipop lady, son.

And finally, please, [iplease[/i, bring back Ben Harrison. Tough as they come, a workhorse and an [iactual[/i ball-playing forward of talent and not a forward who fancies himself as a ball-playing forward (hello Ashton, hi Joe).

I think it is harsh to say we need to get rid of Russell, he is the best ball runner in our team, nobody else gets consistently quick ptb like him, that is so important in modern game.

I agree with the rest, but Gidley needs to go as well. He is another year older, and he shown in the final that he doesn't have the passing or kicking game close to the opposition line to unlock good defences, he was comfortably outplayed by Williams. He also missed the tackle for their try.

He isn't much better than Patton but takes up a huge chunk of our salary cap... we could get a real quality centre/forward if he wasn't here.

I wouldn't mind keeping Sandow because he does offer that creative and kicking game we sorely miss at times, but whether he is consistent enough to justify being our marquee signing I don't know.

It is harsh on Russell, I admit, and I do admire his qualities. The problem is, he is clearly an out-and-out FB. If we play him on the wing we are shoehorning him into the team, and that is where a lot of our problems lie. If we keep Russell, and I'm sure we will, then he needs to play FB, and I'm not sure he is good enough for that. That means moving Ratchford around, which in turn means moving Gidley.

As for Sandow and Gidley, they were the competition's best half-back combination in the first part of the season by a mile. Sandow's injury disrupted them both and Gidley himself was never really 100% fit for the last few months but they'd still be my first choice next year.

Our priorities lie elsewhere. A flyer on the wing, a centre and another prop. Yes, we've come up short (just) in the big games again so some need to be moved on but we have the core.

Just an observation and by no means a criticism , but Wire seem to have quite a few players who are jack of all trades , can anyone actually say where the likes of Ratchford and Russell actually play ? It seems from the outside that these guys have never actually nailed a starting position and made it theirs.

Its not a bad squad but does seem somewhat unbalanced ,. Also don't underestimate the effect of losing Westwood and Currie had on your seasons end ,. Massive losses .

But we have a salary cap, it's ok saying we need a winger, centre and prop but to bring in quality we have to make changes to the existing squad.

That means looking at the highest earners at the club and asking whether they bring enough to the field to justify it. I don't think the difference between Patton and Gidley on the pitch justifies the 200k difference in their salary.

Pair any other half decent half with a fully firing Sandow and they're the best partnership in super league, their isn't much competition.

Put it this way, i would have rather have a starting 13 next season including Patton, Sandow and Watkins for example... than a 13 including Gidley, Sandow and Rhys Evans because we have no space to manoeuvre, and therefore have a centre whose on 25k a year.

Ten years ago maybe he could have been an out and out fullback. However, nowadays you can't really be a top fullback if you can't pass - it's too easy for the defence to shoot in on you out the back of a second man play. As a Saints fan I'd much rather Russell played fullback than Ratchford (and I think Ratchford has got some fairly large deficiencies), because Russell may have more attacking involvement playing fullback but the rest of your backline will have less.

I cannot disagree with this. Gidley simply does not offer the value for money.

If we are short of cap space then we need to lose the likes of Bailey, Cox, Penny, R Evans, Dodds (too much risk) and either get a quality strike centre, or move Ratchford to centre and get a quality full back such as Hardaker. Gidley can spell Clarke. Sandow and Patton in the halves.

I might be wrong here but our win ratio with Russell at FB is high? I think we are at our best with him in that position.

On reflection I think our season has been pretty good
We have fallen short on two from three occasions but look at it this way
Won the LLS
Runners up CCF
Runners up GF
Best defence
Best attack
And with those stats we should have the treble but we Dont
Let's move on, praise the whole club and support I think next season will be a good one and we've made the WCC in the process
Come on everyone we're all hurting but let's get some positive thinking for next year

I disagree. For the hight this club has set itself with investment in players, facilities and staff, that represents a failure.
Exclude LLS as a trophy, is not, it's a sub reward of the GF that carries no merit.
In football you would see a manager sacked at the elite level for a season like ours.

Me too

Totally agree. Nobody complained in 2011. We have done better than 2011

But we could also then say...out win ratio is higher with Penny on the wing instead of Russell...?

Spot on.

In 2011 we didn't have the effort in personal and facilities we have now.
In 2011 we were satisfied, as you improve expectations soulful become higher.

It'd be like man city finishing second in the league, runners up in FA cup and winning the league cup.....they wouldn't be happy with that. Im not happy. If our only three quarter signing for next season is blythe we might as well not bother.

Football is fairytale world where a manager can be sacked after 3 months with a £million settlement because money is no object.

We were disappointing last night, but at the start of the season we were playing some great rugby. The outcome to the season is something we would have dreamed about ten years ago. Clearly we still need to improve, but I do not understand the desperation on this board at all.

With regards to having the best attack, whilst you have scored the most points during the season you failed to score enough when it mattered. It's very rare to lose games when you've only conceded 12 points but you've done it twice in the finals this year. Only 1 try in the GF, 2 in the CC with one coming from an opportunistic intercept, and whilst you won vs Hull and Saints in the previous 2 weeks, only 3 tries both times for how much you dominated those games was a poor return. With Lineham's final try coming from Hull having to throw the ball about and without dragging up a big argument their was obviously some controversy about the ones you scored vs Saints, so questions have to be asked about why you are finding it tough to score in the crunch games.

Because our right hand side is severely handicapped by evans at centre, and Atkins went off the boil on the other side, this coupled with Gidley who isn't very creative with ball in hand.

I really think you guys need some perspective , You are no doubt one off the top two sides in Super League but must realize that you are no where near as good as say you were in 2011 . That though is he same with all the top teams , no disrespect to Wigan as they fully deserve the Trophy as they have overcome so many injuries this year but without doubt the side they had out yesterday are the worst ever to win the Grand Final but thats not down to either coaches unfortunatley it is down to a general lack of quality players availible throughout the comp . Beware of what you wish for as the only coach that i feel could improve you is from Cas and i reckon he will not be coming in your direction

Exactly, we were building in 2011 having won the CC the two previous seasons.

Building in 2011 for what? For the core of the team to be tore out two years later due to age and retirement? Does the rebuilding we've had to do over the past two seasons prior to 2016 not count for anything?

I think you misunderstood his point DAG.
He didn't mean re-building. He meant building like a crescendo.

Building to becoming a consistent force in SL from mid-lower table also rans. Is was only the back end of 2009 that we started to look anything like with the turning point being London away (the Matt King moment).

Smith failed to rejuvenate and turnover the squad each season with minor changes. He got to the stage where we had to let a high number of players go at once and failed to replace them (all apart form Briers which was unfortunate to end a season early). It's called succession planning and we did none of it. We needed a full rebuild. 2013/14/15 we gradually got worse - not better. Just look at the panic buys of Bailey and Cox as an example of lack of planning. Cox was rejected as not good enough for a team which was to be relegated that season!

In 2016 we played the majority of the season without recognised wingers or fullback and one attacking centre. We had a weak interchange bench and a second rower at starting prop who could not break a single tackle. This is after 8 years in charge. The comparison of the potency of the 2016 team vs the 2011 team does not bare thinking about.

Consider Leeds from 2004 to last year. They competed in 8/12 Grand finals doing that period of 12 years, winning 7 of them. That was not all achieved with the same squad, it was through an evolution in the playing personnel year on year whilst maintaining consistency and the board demanding exceptionally high standards. Alex Fergusson did the exact same thing a Manchester United. Managed to rotate a team over a long period of time whist still succeeding.

If our board truly demanded excellence, they would recognise that Smith in 8 years and resources at his disposal has failed to deliver the prize that matters most and lost 4 finals on the bounce. You don't need to be a coaching genius to win the GF, Wane has showed that. Time for change.

I was chastised on here, at the back end of 2011, for having the temerity to suggest that Briers needed replacing/adequate back up, quite quickly.He was still a good player, but time was catching up with him, and he was regularly picking up those three weeks plus, injuries. Three years later, bar his doctor telling him he had to retire, he would have still played in the 2014 season. Smith simply doesn't have much foresight, when some of us can see the bleeding obvious.

We panic buy Cox (I'll be kind, and call him average) and the Pantomime Dame, Bailey. Next season, we've got the bang ordinary Blyth back, and if rumours are true, Dom Cwosbeh? I know we have a salary cap, but why are we shopping at Harrod's, and then, a week later, we're picking around in the "oops" shelf at Netto.

For every Chris Hill, Smith buys us an Asotasi.
Why have we been bullied by inferior packs, time after time? When we played Hudds down here, in July, they were comfortably bottom of the table. They were ginormous, yet we try to take them on, down the middle, and we JUST scrape a win. Tactical Muppetry.

5 years ago, we had 4 great prop's. Now we have one.
We have players playing out of position, week in, week out.

I can see what's happening. Many on here can. Smith can't.