Lomax ran the show. Masterclass!

I'm sorry, when did we become genuine challengers?

I know the good start to the season as got many fans suddenly thinking we are world-beaters, but didn't we all agree pre-season that top 4 and a half decent showing in the play-offs would be a good season?

Fact is, we have had a good start results-wise (performances have actually been workmanlike & patchy rather than looking like some invincible side) and then with 2 rather weakened lineups we have lost to the 2 teams likely to be the GF finalists in October.

Call me easily pleased but I'll take what I've seen so far. Even in defeat, it was a big improvement on last season and I'll be more concerned if results go wrong after the break and we have what looks an easier run of fixtures.

Very true. It's unrealistic to expect to go from 11th to GF winners in one season. But top 4 and one or two playoff wins would be my balanced expectation. Obviously if we do more than that then great.

It was clear for both games, especially Wigan, we were miles off where we want to be with defensive line speed.
We ought to have beaten Wigan with fitness alone.

You can’t rely on holding back and trusting the defensive line when playing without big men.
Salford had to run around them to score, but when you are without props, teams can run right up the middle and have gained 10 yards already, plus an offload or the occasional line break, and your done!

If you can’t trust the defence, then you have to jump out and get on top of them early…they go a set of six and are lucky to make 20 yards before having to make a deep kick.

Gets off soapbox.

Someone is going to have to educate me here I don’t claim to have all the knowledge of the rules are if there actually any. Anyway I thought I read somewhere that it was about speeding the game up (which we evidently rely on)

So my concern before the Catalan game I knew teams would have to slow us down. Catalan had mastered that in one of their previous games and then Wigan done it to us and from the get go Saints done it to us. Now fair play they got away with it some of the laying on last night was embarrassing at one point I thought LMS was having a love in with one of our players he held on to him that long, btw I didn’t notice our players fight so hard to get up. So is there a rule regarding ruck speed I even saw mentioned in Powells post match interview he spoke of the ruck being 8 seconds.

I agree that we needed to fight a lot harder to force the ref into a decision. The first set of the match took a full minute to complete, with Saints lying on in every tackle.

It's always struck me as simply being at the referee's discretion, which is probably why, as fans, we moan a lot about inconsistencies in how it's applied.

If you recall our game with Salford a few weeks ago, I remember the ref suddenly getting on their case for slowing the play the ball at the beginning of the second half, after basically ignoring it for the first 40 minutes.

Overall, I think it's a problem that won't ever have a defining solution - Similar to the 10 yard defensive line, which is sporadically enforced by referees, it appears to simply be down to what mood the ref is in on any given day.

Well thanks for that. It makes sense what you are saying because one week it’s fine then another week fans of any team are complaining about slow play the ball, if it is at all what you that it’s a referee’s discretion then sorry it’s unprofessional. It’s either allowed or you take it out the game. Like I have already said my view is/was the RFL are looking to speed up the game making it a more attractive watch.

Our game always seems to hinge on the speed we play the ball, if teams can stop that then we are doomed as we seem to have no other game plan. The only player we have that fights to keep his front is Vaughan. Within in minutes the game plan of Saints was clear slow the ruck, that and just generally up for it more we were or was it just confusion because we had no other plan. Worse game from Williams I have seen also.

With the start we made, the squad we have, the abundance of forwards signed and the improvement of the pack, the fact that Saints have just lost one of their greatest coaches in the SL era and have had an indifferent start coupled with the fact that Wigan look like they are a Bevan French injury away from being a pretty average team, we should be aiming to be challengers.

Similar to Arsenal this season where no body expected them to be challengers but with the likes of Liverpool and City (to their standards) dropping off they find themselves in a unbelievable position where, never in their wildest dreams before the season started, did they expect to be top of the league with six games left after tonight. That should be the model this season, shoot for the stars and all that.

Also, don't give me the nonsense about finishing 11th last season. That team should never have finished 11th with the personnel we had and players performances were an absolute joke. I'd like to remind you that Leeds were 11th when Rohan Smith took over last season and went on to reach a Grand Final.

1. The start we have made is totally irrelevant in the play off rugby system we have. Yes, if it was top of the table = champions, then I could see why people might have higher expectations, be disappointed and want to see better than the last 2 weeks. But, we don't, so the start means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

2. The squad we have is relatively weak in comparison to Saints and Wigan (as proved by the last 2 weeks) and is the reason why having inflated expectations is a nonsense.

A dose of realism is needed, I suspect?

In order to get a quick play the ball you have to win the collision, I didn’t see Wire do that many times against Saints.

Clark going to be out a while again, I thought he was brought back to soon but guess given suspensions and other injuries.

The start raises expectations and gets people excited and builds confidence.

I disagree. On paper we have a better squad than Wigan in my opinion. We have the best halfback in the league, best prop, best 9 in Clark (when’s he on it and fully fit).

Do you really think Williams is better than Lomax?

That's Just arbitrary though IMO. What I see is that the inept referee (insert any superleague referees name here) just decides one team is winning collisions and let's them get away with a much slower ruck than their opposition all game. Its usually Wigan, saints and Wigan who get benefit of the doubt.

Didn't know you had signed Lomax Roby and Walsmley!!!

I almost typed that word for word...

Lomax is miles better than Williams..and on less money..wish we had him

If you get dominated in the tackle then teams are allowed to hold you down longer. Been that way for years and happened to us on Good Friday as well. Our PTB was a snail's pace. Complaining about a slow ruck is usually a sign that you've lost the physical battle.

Of course, doesn't help that refs just randomly decide to ping a slow ruck out of nowhere from time to time and nobody has a clue what the actual line is

Maybe we need another shot clock for ruck speed then no one ,including the ref, is in any doubt.

Wish it was that simple. Hearing Griffiths being so vocal early on and the penalising for it like I’ve said in previous posts on this I just can’t get how every ref seems to be different with it.

Yes.

They wont like Wigan getting double the benefit of the doubt in St Helens, and will add to their conspiracy theorists claims.

You can slow the play the ball down by controlling the ruck. The arbitrary bit for the ref is deciding when the player has been held and who won the collision.

If you play touch rugby then you could measure the time for a ruck, but in a collision game that is tricky.

Lets say the release has to be 3 seconds from when held is called, but then you have to decide what is a release? Is a player released if all hands are off but there is still a tangle of legs. What if a players arm is stuck under the ball carriers arm? If the player pulls their arm out and the ball comes with it is that a knock on or a reefing of the ball. It is a challenge that RL has that RU does not as in RU there is no play the ball and therefore no need to judge the ruck speed. In American football the play stops completely and starts again from a set point. Our game is unique in that the collision is a tangle of bodies and positions and judgements from the ref.

Probably the ideal tackle is
a) holding a player
b) small backwards momentum (to allow more time for the ref to call held)
c) to be taking the player to the ground at the point held is called (so that a few more microseconds are added for hitting the ground)
d) to have some limb entanglement (to allow for slower release)
e) for the ball carrier to be falling to their back with head away from the attacking line (so the player has to regain their feet and direction before playing)

All this would add to the time in the tackle whilst not actually meaning the tackling players are holding down for any longer.

Whereas probably the worst tackle is

a) just a hand or finger on a ball carrier
b) ball carrier has hit the ground quickly in with forward momentum (Makinson at his best does this)
d) no limb entanglement
e) for the ball carrier to hit the ground in an all 4s position with no one on their back so are able to regain their feet more efficiently.

Either way it has been well publicised that Saints have received the slowest play the ball of the last 2 seasons, so it goes to show that you can still win a lot of games even without getting the calls from the ref.

Indeed I think Wigan last year had the second slowest play the ball behind Saints, so both top sides (and trophy winning sides) which other sides successfully managed to slow down but could still perform.

Haha, it's only for this seasonso far, It's been saints twice for the past few seasons. I expect that by the end of this season the Saints will have put enough pressure on the disciplinary panel to be back as the leading council with double benefit of the doubt to Wigans 1 unit and everyone else's 0.

I meant to say wigan, saints and Leeds, but didn't.