Reading between the lines, I think the problem may be that TS has Simon Moran's total trust and confidence.

I get the feeling that when SM & TS sat down at the end of last year to discuss the squad and TS stated we go with what we've got, even if Simon felt a bit of disquiet he wouldn't have voiced it because of his total faith in TS' judgement.

The fact that they have such a relationship is great, and we have benefited as a club, but it can become damaging.

This "shelf life" argument is a load of bull really, Smith was at Leeds four seasons, he won the Grand Final in his first season and he won the Grand Final in his last season. His first four seasons at Warrington started with winning the Challenge Cup and finished with winning the Challenge Cup, and he got to a Grand Final in his fifth. So to argue that Smith has this limited shelf life is nonsense.

The reason we have dipped this year is we lost four key players together, like Saints dipped a couple of years back after losing some key players. TS took a bit of a risk in that rather than line up big names to replace them he had faith in some of the existing players and the younger players to step up, and it looks like they weren't up to it. Also he probably regrets extending the contracts of some other players we've had success with in the past who appear to be in decline. So those were two areas where TS has had faith in people that have let him down.

But TS's faith in those was largely what most of us would have done as well. We gave out those contract extensions when we were Challenge Cup holders or getting to Grand Finals so they were well received by the fans, also signings like Russell, England and Penny were well received on here too in the off season, people were very excited about Russell particularly after the World Cup. There was also optimism that Ratchford had already overtaken Hodgson as the no.1 by the end of last season, and when Briers retired the popular choice was to give G'OB a chance after being on loan at Saints last year: when there were halfbacks discussed on here like Chase, Moore and so on the verdict was "don't need, we've got G'OB". And it was popular to put faith in home grown players: G Riley, R/B Evans, Currie were highly rated and people felt they deserved their chance which Smith has given them.

Now with hindsight everybody is saying it was obvious Smith should have signed established replacements and it was bad planning…..but that wasn't the view before!

I think TS will realise his faith in some players was misplaced and we don't have the squad to compete for trophies this year, we need a bit of rebuilding in the next few years. But we are now a club with good infrastructure, finances, are credible for top players so we should be able to turn it around, like Saints have done under Nathan Brown.

The question then is are we better with TS for this rebuilding or another coach. Many sports teams fall for the "its time for change" argument but change is not the same thing as improvement.

If TS left now then the likely favourites for the Warrington job would be: Noble, McNamara, Millward, Powell and Poching.

Then there would be a group of other potentials: Betts, Elliott, Kearney, Harrison, Rowley, Morgan, McLennan, Sharp, Long, Gentle, Chambers, Lowes.

I would be happy with Noble as Warrington coach and would accept any of McNamara, Powell or Kearney but not sure who else is out there that would really be an inspiring appointment and I would still take TS ahead of any of them.

Smith has still got a few seasons left in him. His full title is Head of Football something or other, so he would be involved in recruitment, planning and player motivation. I think the recruitment this season hasn't been too good, we lost some key players in pivot positions, and we've not really replaced them (apart from maybe Russell at FB). The HB position is still an issue, but we'll get there. I knew it wasn't going to be easy after Briers retired and Morley left. We've had a few bad results, but, and this is coming from an extreme pessimist, we will bounce back, I'm certain of it.

In my opinion, one of the major poor decisions Smith has made over the course of this season was getting rid of Carvell. The guy was immense last year.

Moran is not Koukash, which is enough to say that Smith will have plenty of time to get this turned around.

Watch this space

Agreed especially about Carvell

It was a real head shaker when I heard that he was going, but even more so when it was Bradford he was going to. He lives up in that area though I believe, so that may have been one of the reasons for his move.

We played with a triumvirate of ball players in Briers, Hodgson and Monaghan. We are left with one of those, who, unfortunately, is not playing to his previous exceptional standards. We were planning on going into this season with two of those three. Unfortunately, circumstances dictated otherwise.

It doesn't take the most taxing of thought processes to conclude we are a couple of ballplayers down from where we need to be. Russell will continue to develop as will Myler.

One thing I do know, is that Smith is the guy I want developing those players.

I wonder if Melbourne are considering getting rid of Bellamy?

"What you hear, what you say WY"?

There's more to it than that, Lee. And he actually lives in Stockton Heath now, the big fella. He relocated here.

This thread is total madness, you lose several very experienced ball players, the style of the team will therefore change till a new style of play becomes second nature. This team will come good, maybe one or two aren't up to it at this level and may well be replaced, but change the coach? seriously? I sometimes despair at the stuff Wire fans come up with, such short memories and lack of any real knowledge of Rugby League

It's a difficult situation to try and assess.

Simply put; we look very poor. The biggest drop in quality from one year to the next that I can remember and I'm including the teams who've gone into administration recently in that too. On the whole they were already average(at best) or crap(at worst) and got worse. We've gone from five finals in four years, winning three and topping the table once with two second place finishes...to the most disjointed and lethargic team in Super League. At least with the bottom teams they look like they know what they're doing and look physically 'on it', it's just that they aren't very good. That's not the case with us, we look all over the place.

It would be easy to look at one man and say it's his fault. But should we point the finger at Tony Smith? I'm not so sure. And if it is his fault, I'm thinking it might be in a slightly different way to what others might think it is.

Looking over the time with Simon Moran, you can see the improvements over his time with us. We were no longer a relegation battling side, but not a particularly serious Play-off side neither - as good as finishing fourth was in 2005 beating Leeds in 2006 was. We then pushed further with some really good signings and then a serious coach to take us towards being a serious team, in Smith. We won the 2009 Challenge Cup and it changed us, we stared to get better in the Play-offs and kept winning CCups and finally got to two Grand Finals.

Going off that, you would expect our next drive would be to start winning a GF(s) and competing in he World Club Challenge. Creating a (I don't like this word but it's used a lot in sport) dynasty. Well, that's what I was expecting anyway.

However, it seems like either are true. So I'm prepared to give Tony a year's grace and see where we are this time next year. Because this time next year, if we're in the same position, there is a huge chance that we could be playing London Wakefield Leigh or Fev from Round 23 onwards. But that's a long way off yet, so I'm happy to wait and see.

Who's to say, this time next year we may actually have found out who we really need to get rid off on the playing staff and we could have some really good replacements for them, and the ones we've lost last Winter, and Smith - being the very good coach he is - could have us flying again. You just don't know. We could look back and laugh at ourselves discussing this!

Really? I didn't know he lived down here. Some trek that is every other week, Stocky to Hull and back.

people keep referring to Saints. Saints finished 5th in their so called transition season. I would snap your hand off for 5th right now. Sadly people have started voting with their feet as the recruitment has been shocking.

maybe he has decided that he has run out of his time with us... people are saying 'keep him'.. maybe he doesn't want to stay... For all we know plans could already be in place to replace him at the end of the season. TS and the club could have already come to an agreement... in which case the club could be holding back on new players until the new coach has been chosen and put in place.

or maybe TS is still very happy at the club and is relishing the chance to rebuild this side... Maybe he will turn this around, stay at the club for another 5 years and win more trophies.

I wouldn't rule out something happening though.... Things do need freshening up sometimes. Brilliant coaches do become stale and move on.

Yes, he won us the challenge cups and i will always be thankful for that. But i like the excitement that comes with change.. its a bit like the excitement that comes with new players



I'm sure that when the time is right to find a new head coach, the brilliant people that run our club will appoint someone that they feel can move us forward as a team.

TS deserves the opportunity to put it right after what he has done for us. After all if we had, say, won 3 more games than we have we would be sitting joint 3rd and this thread would not exist. We gave Cullen years and years and he had no pedigree of success. Tony Smith has give us success we could only have dreamed of in 2009 and deserves similar time. Yes his succession planning is questionable as is the decision about Carvell and Asotasi. There is clearly something "up" in the camp too. But he will sort it in my view.

i dont think there's anything up, we're just missing leadership around the club.

i can understand why they would hand part of the captaincy to westwood,purely from an on field performance pov, however i dont think he's totally like a peacock that you can get behind. i always thought that he was a partner in crime for briers and obviously did his best work in conjunction with Lee getting him going.

Monas on the other hand, love the fella, but he's gone on a season(possibly two) too long, and i think captaincy isn't for him, i really dont like seeing him talking to the ref, in the past any bad performances we've had, you'll see him regularly moaning at the referee about bad decisions, but not in a captain stylee, just like his head and concentration has gone.

We just partly need seniority and leadership, thats what's been lost with moz going and also Bert, i've read over the years about the high standards moz demanded in training, likewise with Hodgo, there were reports of him pushing the other backs and wingers for standards. you have to wonder who in the team should/could be doing that this year.

Never mind winning 3 more games this season, I wonder if this thread would exist if our results this season were exactly as they are but we had not lost in the second half at Old Trafford

*Taken us as far as he can*.... A tired, worn out cliché started in football and sadly, has now spread to our game...Please desist.

Also just to say, i wonder if the club are questioning the benefit of the australia trip this year.

This comment from atkins has stuck in my head since pre season

Its this bit of Atkins personal diary from that very same trip that got me thinking

Humour in adversity, no one does it better than a Wire fan.

Could it be that TS had a shopping list of players he would like to sign and SM told him that there was no money to spend?
There are several players who the media have speculated were coming to Warrington but have subsequently signed for other clubs.

Apart from me, hey, Uncle Rico?

I had begun to think nobody would come up with that speculation.
It seems obvious to me that happened.
Posters on here would have gone straight for the throat if I had have said that.