Really???..... I think that's absolute nonsense - Put yourself in Wane's (or any coaches) shoes when faced with a Wire side that has a lead over you and are looking pretty rampant, what do you do?

Quite simply, you do what Wigan did on Thursday night and in the Grand Final. You get in their faces. You bully them. You put some shots in on them.... Then you watch them implode because they have little backbone and no Plan B.

I hate to say it, but at present Wire are a flat track bully - They look fantastic when Plan A comes off and the opposition have no response (a la Saints the other week), but when a side disrupts their initial plans they look weak-willed and ineffective.

Whilst Wane's tactics may not be for the purist, the recent matches between Wire and Wigan shows they work - I would bet you any money that Denis Betts has Widnes primed for a similar assault on Wire this weekend.... He will know full well that for Widnes to stand any chance he has to get stuck in - It certainly won't be pretty if Widnes are to triumph.

I'll be honest the late hit on Laithwaite is a penalty and that's it, nothing to get angry about.
The incident with Higham when he slammed him on the floor again a penalty and that's it.
But sorry I disagree with Phuzzy on the third man in on Waterhouse, it's banned in the NRL and it's a cheap shot, it should be banned here too, it is a very dangerous tackle and rightly been recognised so down under.
Ratchford had his ankles broke in the GF by this very same tackle.
Ban it for 2015 and never return.

Because you're picking and choosing who you believe is 'taking them out of the game' based on your own club loyalties. None of the incidents referred to are even noteworthy, let alone designed to take someone out of the game! The Laithwaite injury was unfortunate but you can't espouse that someone was deliberately taken out of the game every time a player gets injured! I know it suits you preconceived idea that this is how Wigan play the game but, in truth, they play it tough and hard and it's up to your guys to match this. That's the nature of our sport! Let me ask you a question; did Ben Westwood deliberately attempt to take Blake Green out of the GF and, if so, would you care to point out where you posted your disgust at his thuggish behaviour? Or are you prepared to argue that throwing a punch hard enough to fracture a cheekbone on a grounded and held player is 'part of the game' because it's one of your own? Given that it was FAR worse than any of McIlorum's incidents the other day are you happy to state that Tony Smith sends his players out to deliberately injure players as you seem happy to suggest the Wigan coach is? In truth, neither coach would do such a thing and to suggest otherwise is a complete nonsense. Playing tough is a completely different matter. As you say, Boyd did it as well as anyone. However, don't try to make out that because another player called him dirty he ''must be doing something right'' and then not afford the same assessment to others just because they don't play for you. That is the hypocrisy I mentioned in my post.

I posted on this over on our board Yed. If you believe it should be outlawed based on the occasional injury then you have to similarly agree that ANY play that results in injury should equally be banned. Third man in (front or side on) to a standing leg is already banned as this is the one that results in injury. Tackles to the backs of legs is no more likely to result in injury than anything else in the sport. However, if the RFL decide to follow suit and ban it then I will have no problem with an outcry should anyone get injured from it. However, as far as the rules go, it's still legal, and quite rightly so in my opinion. Tackles around the legs have always had a place in our game as long as they aren't dangerous. As for Thursday's game, the third man in tackle was in evidence all evening from both sides. The MM one was no different than any of the others on the night and was to the back of the legs so I can't see why you're singling this one out as opposed to any other. As far as I'm aware no tackle from either team, including this one, has been subject to a disciplinary. Could you explain why you think the one on Waterhouse was any different to the others as I'm a little baffled?

Mate, it has EVERY bearing on what you are saying! You chose not to address it because you simply cannot justify your comments re: McIlorum in Light of it. That's fine, but at least admit it! Either both are thugs or none are. Take your pick...

If I run the ball in, and get hit I have some control to how I prep my body for both impact and how I land, the 3rd man in I have zero control, I'm locked into a position and just have to accept how my body reacts.
Yes there will be times nothing happens but players shouldn't have to be in a position in which they have zero control on anything.
A spear tackle is the same and that is banned.

I understand a normal tackle can injure but calculated risk againt unnecessary risk are different.
McIllorum has form but by no means is it unique to him, all teams do it, and why wouldn't they as it isn't illegal.
I don't get angry about it as it's in the rules but like I say I wince and just think it is unnecessary and should be taken out, after all the player is 99 times out of a hundred tackled anyway and this is a tactic to just slow down the ruck.

Think most of us will agree that Bennie was lucky to get away with that one...but I find it amazing how may occasions there have been this year where Wigan fans have continually used this single incident to justify there own team's numerous instances of thuggery.

I've read shorter novels than Phuzzy's posts.

A classic case of the pot calling the kettle brunt if you ask me. We will just have to agree to differ. My previous post was meant to infer that Goodway was being a bit hypocritcal in criticising Les Boyd, as Goodway once flattened Cullen with a late shot to the head from behind and then stood on his hand as he walked past him.
In any case my comments were aimed at Warrington fans not people who have nothing better to do but surf other club's boards offering unwanted pearls of wisdom.

The sad thing is, it's going to take a VERY serious injury as a result of the aforementioned "cannonball tackle", before the shimdits at the RFL take action, and ban this cowardly act out of the game.

If these idiots continue to bury their heads in the sand, and ignore this practice, the only way round it is for refs to shout "held" earlier, and penalise as appropriate. Not an ideal scenario, as we all want the game to flow. Either way, somethings got to change.

Is it any wonder we're still light years behind the Aussies, when our PTBs take an age to complete, due to constant laying on or "stand up" tackles, which enables the cannonball man to come in and wreak havoc/thuggery.

It needs sorting

Pretty much spot on, Dita's.

As much as Wane is a gorilla, he's a successful gorilla. I don't want us to follow his tactics, but he's done it.

As I alluded to earlier in the thread, we need to toughen up, and maybe (to use an Aussie vernacular) "get a bit of mongrel about us".

As much as I hate to say it, we ARE a flat track bully.
Yes, this is the first time in five seasons that the Pies have beaten us at their place. It shouldn't have happened, but Wane reacted to the situation. We stood still, as we did in the GF.

As I type, I've got the Arsenal game on in the background, and we're becoming like them.
We're OK in beating the RL equivalent of West Brom (like Arsenal do), but when we've got a comfortable lead against a big boy, and they start to fightback, we go into our shells.

Come on, Wire. HARDEN UP.

What's most disappointing is that, on Thursday night especially, we should have knew what was coming - In the same way that Wane's half time team talk would have been very predictable, then, you would like to think, so should Tony Smith's have been.

Surely Smith would have warned them that Wigan would come out fighting, looking to needle Wire, basically put some fire into both the game and the crowd??...... If he did warn them, then the reaction he and we got was very timid and very disappointing - Once in a Grand Final, with so much at stake and nerves fraying, is pretty much forgivable, but again, 12 months later, against the same team, suggests a problem a bit deeper than the misfortune of losing a couple of players. It suggests a mental problem, the type that used to dog us back in the days of the 'Saints curse'.

I know its only twice against the Wiganers, but they have been the types of defeat that are difficult to just shrug off, simply because it gives Wigan an extra belief even when they are seemingly beaten.

It pains me to say, but I don't see us beating Wigan (or Leeds for that matter), if we meet in the forthcoming play offs.

I said that, the first ten minutes after half time was all about standing up to them, maybe scoring if the opportunity arose. We failed to do that, then the kicking game went ary.


Supposedly the ruling had been amended earlier this year following the grand final to make the offence less specific so you couldn't argue that the knees being taken the natural way was a cop out.

Attacking the standing leg of a tackled player is dangerous, take someone's legs out, they fall backwards, with some one around their ankles. Two fellas weighing them down on top, it's a very awkward fall potentially. Nothing natural or safe about it.

That's the thing. Smith (to me) seems like a bit TOO much of a nice bloke.
He's the kind of geezer that you'd go for a pint with, and enjoy his company.
Wane, on the other hand (again, to me), seems like a knuckle scraper, and if it wasn't for RL, he's probably be shuffling round the streets of Wigan in a 1990's shell suit, glowering at everyone, and then lumbering into The Moon Under The Water on a Monday morning with his "pals".

Again, we need to growl more

Maybe we do need to add a bit of steel gauntlet to our silk glove, but the fact remains that if Ben H had remained on the field and Monas hadn't thrown [ithat[/i pass we'd probably have won.

I do agree, however, that on a few occasions now there have been extended breaks in play and we have mentally switched off. That is a habit we need to address because it is symptomatic of lack of mental toughness and I think that is the crux of our problems. Everyone knew Wigan would throw the kitchen sink at us on the 2nd half resumption, and I'm sure TS did and warned the players accordingly, but we failed to react and handed the initiative to them.

It's lack of leadership on field, I'd be going with the model of a leadership team next year, 5 players in the squad with the responsibility for bollocking and geeing up people, you'd like to think players would do it as a matter of course, but it appears not so.

Now, you're bang on again

I'm sure Smith has got a ghetto blaster in the dressing room, and a few mins before we go out for the second half, he puts on Bob Marley's "Every little thing's gonna be all right" and the players walk out, thinking all in the garden's rosy.
WE NEED MORE STEEL
Now, I know the games moved on, and he was a bit of a knuckle scraper, himself, but the more mature ones on here, cast your minds back to when Tony Barrow was in charge, and we went into half time behind or the game was close. You could bet your last 50p that we'd come out and OBLITERATE the opposition, be it Wigan or Whitehaven.

We simply don't have that "oomph" anymore

The fact that Les Boyd as assistant was in the dressing room as well probably made for some, errm colourful half-time chats, but you're right it invariably worked! Of course, in Cullen, Mike Greg, Bob jackson etc. we also had plenty of players on the pitch not averse to laying the law down to colleagues.

Maybe it's something in the psyche of English sportsmen that they need a verbal pasting now and then. Using football as an example, Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough, Jose Mourinho, Kenny Dalglish etc. were not exactly shrinking violets; you don't achieve continued success at the highest level by ruling with fear, bullying players or screaming endlessly but the results of that quartet speak for themselves.

In what way have I been hypocritical? I've quite plainly stated that you either believe one or the other and don't pick and choose according to which shirt they are wearing. My view is I like the enforcers in the game whether they be MM, Westwood, Morley, Skerrett or anyone else and regardless of whose shirt they are wearing. In my opinion they add to our game and the sports folklore. Hope that's clear enough for you.

As for the last sentence; you do realise that these are open forums, don't you? You also realise that the topic I was replying to in this instance (yours) was about a Wigan player? You also realise that the two teams had just played each other? If any of those points are confusing you, just let me know and I'll explain the principle of free and open discussion in a democratic society for you. I'm sure you'll find it illuminating!

Point taken Yed and I respect your opinion on this. I don't necessarily agree but it's a fair viewpoint...

That was exactly my point though mate. The examples from Thursdays match were not 'thuggery' as being described. Unlike the Westwood one they were the type of thing that happens in absolutely every game from every team, including yours. There was a late challenge (not high or shoulder btw) and a perfectly legal challenge as third man in (not a cannonball challenge as being claimed) and this has been further highlighted by the fact that neither incident was subject to a disciplinary. That's why I and others chose to contrast it with the Westwood offence in the GF. It's certainly not the only offence from Warrington players (unless you're trying to claim that no Warrington player has ever put in a late challenge or a legal third man tackle, of course!), just one that illustrates the difference between playing the game tough and to it's limits and outright 'thuggery' if that's the term you wish to use. Also, for my own part, I was trying to show the overreaction given that most of the posters complaining about MM didn't post to condemn a FAR worse incident when it was from their own player. I thought they were both valid points worth making. Most, if not all, teams have players who walk the line. Westwood, MM for us, Ablett for Leeds and so on. It's part of the game and (imo obviously) long may it continue!

Read my post again in isolation instead of combining it with several others and then look up the meaning of hypocritical and you may find that illuminating.

In an effort to get back to the original question, the 2 reasons we lost it were Wane's half time team talk and a THAT pass.

All this stuff about Mickey Mac this and SOL that.....if we had come back in that manner then we'd have been chuffed to bits. Hopefully the TS mantra of learning through defeat will pay dividends in the Play Offs where we might show some over due bottle

NTW

hypocritical:
/ˌhɪpəˈkrɪtɪkl/

adjective

adjective: hypocritical

behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.



Examples

adjective :

1. of the nature of hypocrisy, or pretence of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess:
"The parent who has a “do what I say and not what I do” attitude can appear hypocritical to a child."


2. possessing the characteristics of hypocrisy :
"Isn't a politician hypocritical for talking about human dignity while voting against reasonable social programs?"

I think both examples fully illustrate why your post regarding Boyd and McIlorum are hypocritical. You pretend to abhor the 'dirty' play of one whilst quite obviously delighting in that of the other. Care to apply the same to my posts?

Sorry for the above post keeping it off(ish) topic for longer than ideal. Couldn't agree more with your post.