I'm thinking both Roberts and Goodwin have got/had injuries which has hindered them.

What about get a specialist kicking coach from union?

Loads of union teams hire league coaches to improve their defence, why not look to see whether we can get anything from them? Not just goalkicking either, they kick all the time in play union and I expect they could sharpen up some of our long kicking game.

In fact if we really want to steal a march why not get a scrummaging coach in. No other team knows how to scrum properly and I don't think there's anything in the laws that says you can't contest a scrum (correct me if I'm wrong?).

I know people turn their nose up at the mention of union but imagine a Wire team where multiple outside backs were comfortable kicking with either foot and when we were in a bad position on the last tackle there were plenty of options for someone to smash a 40/20; had a 80% plus kicking success rate and won a lot of scrums against the head. It wouldn't mean league was slow and boring as the things that slow union down are the mauls and rucks rather than the effective kicking. Although I can see the risk on the scrum point, if we started doing it every other team would have to follow suit to compete, and then we could have created a nightmare. Imagine league refs trying to police all that crouch-hold-engage stuff.

I have seen Widnes have the nouse to push us off the ball in the scrum on several occasions without being penalised.

Hesford was full value for his role whereas Botica was pretty much carried. He was ok but if he was around today he'd be a championship player.

Wasn't Frano Botica a NZ All black prior to playing for Wigan?- I agree that he would do extremely well in the championship.

Utter nonsense.

Your opinion is noted.
If he wasn't a kicker would Botica walk in to the Wigan team?...I think he might have a chance at Widnes or Huddersfield.

Carried? Botica scored 11 tries in his 1st season. Hesford scored 17 tries in his 6 years at Warrington.

Stats can be made to look many things.
Hesford was a semi pro with semi pro team mates up against teams that were a match and better than Warrington.
Botica was a pro, within a team of pros with pro opportunity to score against semi pro teams in a league where only Wigan were pro and there was no equals or better.

From what I remember Hesford was in the team primarily as a superb goal kicker. He was tried on the wing and fullback but his skill alone in either position didn't justify his selection.

Yes, correct Hesford played wing. Botica played #6. If you going to carry a player put him in a position where he is not going to get involved in play.

I remember Hesford as chiefly a full back. As I remember it Botica developed his kicking skills to get into the team but once in was there for more than just his goal kicking. But I’m sure Wigan fans will have more authority on these points.
I suppose from our point of view the question should be who would you be prepared to drop to bring in a specialist goal kicker, then who is available who can kick and play in that position without losing too much in general play?

I do like Lefty’s fantasy football approach though. It’s like contracts, salary cap and availability don’t matter...he is Uncle Mo and I claim my fiver.

I can't name any current player in Union or League who is not really good enough to be in the team but is picked as a specialist kicker. Also ... even the best kickers have bad days ... especially when the pressure is on.

BTW Frano Botica was a hell of a player. Wigan virtually had the pick of the rugby world at the time.

Hesford initially was on the wing and from what I remember may have played centre as well, but at full back totally justified his position. He was superb under the high ball and a dropped ball was extremely rare and he was a good tackler.
As a goal kicker, I haven't seen his equal in over 55 years of watching. He would kick from inside our own half on many occasion and the pitches were often mud baths. Not forgetting also that he didn't kick off a tee, but just a raised divot.

Great post.

Cheers RD

Now that he’s been inducted into the wire hall of fame maybe it’s time for Steve to do some work in a coaching capacity with some of the present day kickers ....

He wasn't signed as a kicker so the answer would have to be yes (although using the phrase 'walked into the team' is a bit disingenuous as very few players, including great ones, would have 'walked into that team such was the competition).

He played chiefly at 6. Do you 'hide' an incapable player in the halves? He had great hands, a fabulous rugby brain and a determination to succeed second to none. That he turned himself into a world class kicker, one who is still spoken about today, should be enough to tell you that!

I saw pretty much all of his games for Wigan and I can tell you he rarely, if ever, had a bad game. In fact I'm struggling to remember any at all! That level of consistency is rare, even amongst, great players. He was a superstar in a team of superstars. To suggest he'd be anything less today is, as I said, utter nonsense.

The only way the phrase 'he'd be a championship player if he was around today' (sic) would be right would be if you meant he was still playing now... aged 54! In that case you might just be right!

Great post.

Phuzzy's Post is pretty much How I see the Botica thing. Wigan didnt carry Players yes they may have had the odd player who wasn't that good Billy Mcginty, Mark preston, Ged byrne, Ian Lucas etc etc (theres probably a lot more to be fair) but carrying a player isnt the way to win multiple challenge cups and League titles.

Botica was a Key player to their success in the same way Hanley, Gregory, Edwards, Tuigamala, Bell, and to a lesser extent Offiah were.

Offiah is the odd one if anyone wanted to pick out a player......Wigan Didnt need Offiah at all even Mark preston did a job for Wigan as we can testify in the 1990 challenge cup final.

wigan didnt need offiah as much as they needed Botica....

as A wire fan your heart sunk When Wigan Scored out wide becasue you had no glimmer of hope that it was only going to be a four pointer.. it was more often than not 6....

its fair to say he grew into his stand off role but what half back doesnt.....

Very true and, to be fair, he wasn't a half bad full back before becoming a half! He was rated in that position by some very good coaches. All round good rugby player who, I get the feeling, could have turned his hand to any position along the back line had he wanted.

Didn’t he play on the wing for the first half a season or so?

Good player who’s transition was made easy being in a team that was fully pro and years ahead of the competion.

Had he been playing for Leigh I suspect we wouldn’t even remember his name, such is the cruel nature of sport.

He did for a short time but it soon became evident he had much more to offer with ball in hand. Whilst you're probably right on the face of it regarding playing at a lower club I think the same could be said of any player. The truth is that, on the whole, players find their level. The fact that he was at Wigan at that time says less about luck than the quality of the player. You don't become an All Black by being the sort of player who would languish at a lower level.

Interesting debate about carrying a kicker btw. It's something that's often spoken about but I can't remember many examples where this has been the case. Most great kickers have also been great players. Looking at Wigan, for example, our best have been the likes of Sullivan, Farrell, Botica and Richards. Hardly the sort of player that could be said to have been carried! I'm not even sure there is a position in the modern game where a player could be hidden anyway.

Yes it wasn’t a dig at Botica, he was a legendary sportsman. Just think that his talents wouldn’t have shone through if he’d made the transition in a club in the lower half of the table.