What a battle, these two both need to start every game for England. We need to get away from picking Jokers like Wilkin and JJB or putting loose forwards in to accomodate them. Both great players and the cream of SL in their position.

Don't tell Northampton Saint, he reckons Wilkin is better than Westwood. Wilkin wouldn't just have stood up to Hock last night; he would also have written something mean about him afterwards on his blog.

Well said, at last a bloke with good sense, again, well said Sir!

Agree with the original post. Putting aside my feelings about Gareth Hock - both should start for England.

Both unfashionable forwards rough tough and a throw back to when forwards were beasts love em

The difference though is that Westwood has now learned to channel his aggression into hard but legal play. Hock still turns into a caveman-thug when the match is going against him. Two examples: elbowing Westwood in the tackle ( which he got away with ) and chasing way out of the line in an attempt to flatten Briers, which just created the huge hole from which Hodgson set up Monaghan's try.

Play like that against the Aussies ( where, let's face it, the matches are usually going against England ) and Hock will be a cert for a red card.

NRL style players who would play well against Australia given the chance. I think Hock is a bit of a , but he's decent.

Good tussle between the two but by far the best encounter was Tomkins trying to square up to Hill. Hilly swats him away like a fly, then when they are about to scrum down, Ratboy walks over to Hilly and pats him on the shoulder and starts a laugh and a joke with him as if nothing happened. All mouth and no action, that lad.

Hock needs to learn to channel his aggression in a different way , rather than turn into a thug he needs to use that aggression into his play within the rules ! Westwood has changed his play in a similar way since smith came in , he was a penalty machine before that Hock could learn from this !
I do wonder though if Hock has the brain power to do this !

Working with someone like Smith would do wonders for Hocks game.

This. He could be a world class player, but he has the massive obstacle of being a total w*nker in the way and I fear he never will reach his potential for this very reason.

As a Saints fan, I completely agree. Both horrible people on the field but absolutely brilliant players and the best in their position for England by far.

Wilkin isn't a patch on either of them. Soliola is the closest we've got to that type of player at the moment but I don't think Manu is that far behind those two you've mentioned.

Benny Westwood is a really nice bloke, so you must be referring to yourself and Hock.

He could have meant Wilkin to be fair, I find the preening weirdo a little bit nauseating.

He might be a perfect gentleman off the field; I am referring to how he conducts himself on the field. Why you have chosen to insult me I'll never know. Grow up.

8. Graham
9. Roby
10. Burgess
11. Westwood
12. Hock
13. Ellis

That would be an impressive pack, especially with two of Hill/Mossop/Crabtree/Morley/Carrvell on the bench!

That would match anything that Australia or NZ could offer. Shame the same can't be said about our centres and halfbacks.

I agree completely. Tomkins at full back, and Hall/Charnley on the wings is very strong, but we don't have enough qualiaty centres. Atkins, Yeaman, Bridge, et al just don't cut it. I think Jack Reed is one for the future, but we need another of a similar quality.

The problem with British half backs is the lack of consistency shown by the coach. Sinfield, Chase, Brough, Widdop, Smith, McGuire, Burrow, Lomax. Instead of chopping and changing them for every game, pick the two best and stick to them. Lockyer and Thurston played together year in, year out for the Aussies, and they were one of the main reasons for theisr success. I'd go for Widdop at 6, Brough at 7, but I bet we see loose forward Sinfield in there somewhere and probably Rangi aswell.

Pick the side, stick with it as rigidly as possible. Obviously if a player is injured/out of form then make a bold decision and drop them, but try and give the same players an opportunity.

Put Roby in your team as hooker and the rest of the team will be wasted. He'll be busy bumping up his stats while space and overlaps go begging.

1. Tomkins
2. Hall
3. Reed
4. Atkins
5. Briscoe
6. McGuire
7. Brough
8. Graham
9. Roby
10.Burgess
11.Hock
12.Westwood
13.O'Loughlin

14.Burrow
15.Ellis
16.Carvell
17.Hill

That's what I'd go with.

If you hadn't edited your original post you would be able to see quite clearly why I did it.

Originaly you wrote;



You then changed it to;



You changed it AFTER I took exception to what you had said about Super Ben. So you obviously do know why I chose to insult you. Far from 'never knowing' you knew all along.

Why am I having to explain this to the person that wrote it?

Westwood was outstanding yesterday, as he has been for quite some time. He really impressed me in last years 4 Nations, where he was certainly one of Englands best players, and seems to have improved again this year.

Agreed

Having spoken to him once i found him to be a really decent guy.

It's a shame a Mr L Briers doesn't fancy pulling a white jersey on really. I'd switch Ellis and O' Loughlin around in that side but you're more or less there.

I'm not going to get into an argument over this. It is silly. Perhaps I chose the wrong words, or missed a few words out, to put my point across properly. You have pounced on it like a dog with a bone. Chill out pal!