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| Quote ="Ocker"The problem is that 2 of the 8 which you have identified are UK developed juniors. The orginal poster said overseas players not born overseas. I would have thought that most contributors would take overseas to mean developed overseas like the guys we have and the 6 Quins RL have. Clearly they are not overseas players if they are UK citizens who started playing the game as juniors over here.'"
Ocker why waste your time telling me something I told you I already know? OK what about british born players that move to Australia/New Zealand in their youth and develop over there and return, should they not be classed as overseas players?
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| Quote ="Red John"I was responding to an earlier poster who was whining on about Catalans, Harlequins and Crusaders being teams full of overseas players. It's received wisdom that the newer clubs are just packed full of Aussies, and the people bleating about it don't bother to check whether it's true or not. The truth is, we are no better than them, and in some cases, worse.'"
Harlequins have eventually been forced by the RL to tow the line and put more effort into producing more local players after 30 years. I have witnessed many season's of London/Harlequins being given special allowances by the RFL. Knowbody can deny they have recieved special treatment from the RFL in terms of their past overseas quota and the RL's defiant stance when they went bust. Didn't most of the clubs want to vote them out before Mr Richard Lewis threatned to resign as chairman? Would he have done the same for another non development club? I'm not sure. I think people's perception of them is changing and will change further if or when they have a team consisting of mainly southern developed players.
The Catalan situation is different and some would argue why they needed so many overseas players in the first few years considering the higher numbers of french players already playing RL. This said they do seem to have made the transformation with more french lads now in the squad.
Let's also not forget that these clubs in the past have fielded teams made up mainly of overseas players allowing them to compete at a higher level than some of the other Superleague teams. This is something that sticks in the memory and isn't easy to forget. It's no coincidence that both clubs have played finals at Wembley with a lot of overseas players since the likes of Salford, Wakefield and Castleford last made the trip.
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| Quote ="theredshed"It's very easy to criticise some of the recent signings but have you considered how difficult it must be to attract certain players to the Willows at this present time. I'm sure the club are very ambitious in who they approach but that's the easy part. Let's be honest the club aren't going to make it public knowledge who and how many turned them down. We only got Luke Patten because of DJ!
Let's hope Salford will be a much more attractive proposition if we can gain some momentum in the new stadium.'"
I wasn't criticising the club, more our head coach. When you hear his interviews, he seems convinced that what we needed to improve the team was more experience players, rather than coaching the talent we've got. I seem to recall him employing similar theories at Hull, where he hit the jackpot by signing Jason Smith. McRae just seems like a throw back to SL of 15 years ago, when every team in town was signing Aussies instead of developing talent.
Salford haven't won a major title in generations and the ground isn't the best, granted, so we have to be very shrewd in the transfer market, and hopefully we'll pick up another Holdsworth/Patten. Not going after Feka amd Bailey because we have quota spots to fill.
I've heard the Holdsworth out of contract story and Patten is best mates with him, but does anybody know how we managed to sign Cashmere?
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| Quote ="theredshed"Ocker why waste your time telling me something I told you I already know? OK what about british born players that move to Australia/New Zealand in their youth and develop over there and return, should they not be classed as overseas players?'"
Why waste your time posting it in the first place. Harlequins only have 6 overseas players.
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| Quote ="king of the shed"I'm not too sure about that, we currently only have 4 of our 27 man squad who are 30 or over and those are Patten, Cashmere & Nero (3 you've mentioned for the right reasons) and the other is Anderson. 19 of the squad are English / Irish (i.e. home grown) compare that to Saints, Leeds, Wigan & Warrington and we fair much better for 30+ players.'"
Actually when you look at the squad, it isn't as big an issue as some fans from other clubs would have you believe. There are, however, a couple of players who will be 30 before the month is out also. Which isn't that bad, really, the porblem lies with signing 30+ players who have struggled with injuries since their early 20s. Anderson. Don't get me wrong on his day, he's fast, powerful and has been at the top for a good while now, but will we see hm on pitch? I hope so, and I would love to see him 'tear it up'.
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| Quote ="Ocker"Why waste your time posting it in the first place. Harlequins only have 6 overseas players.'"
No i suppose that all depends and what you class as an [ioverseas[/i player, don't forget Olsi Kransniqi who was born in Albania and Lamont Bryan who was born in Germany and plays international rugby for Jamaica
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| Quote ="Ocker"Why waste your time posting it in the first place. Harlequins only have 6 overseas players.'"
Ocker I was responding to a question you asked me! If you are referring to my first post regards Red John's comments I believe I'm correct in what I said. I couldn't help but notice you didn't question the comment I made about Catalans?
Quote ="Ocker"Who are the 8 Harlequins players you are taking exception with?'"
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| Quote ="Red John"I was responding to an earlier poster who was whining on about Catalans, Harlequins and Crusaders being teams full of overseas players. It's received wisdom that the newer clubs are just packed full of Aussies, and the people bleating about it don't bother to check whether it's true or not. The truth is, we are no better than them, and in some cases, worse.'"
Harlequins are not the worst offenders in SL, and we would have had nearly as many overseas players as HKA, if things had turned out differently. Crusaders do need clamping down on, if they can't find enough British SL players willing to join the club, they should be scouting the national leagues. There are talented British players out there, and you're right too many clubs, Salford included, choose an overseas player over a British one far too often.
When you look at what is being achieived by some clubs, mainly: Hudds, Wigan, Sts and Leeds, minus some average overseas players, and you see what can be achieved by good coaching rather than plugging gaps. Which is a throw back to early SL years. We're lucky to have coaches like Nathan Brown, Micheal MacGuire and Tony Smith in this country, when you look at what they are achieving with largely English squads. Questions get raised over why players leave these clubs and regress. It's simply a matter, of poor coaching at the clubs where they end up.
Look at the difference at Salford the last few weeks. Simms puts his faith in the young British players that he's got and coaches them how to play the game, all of a sudden we appear a much stronger team with less overseas players. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Simms a coach before all the crazy imports started to arrive.
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| Quote ="LincolnDEVILSFan"When you look at what is being achieived by some clubs, mainly, Hudds, Wigan, Sts and Leeds, minus some average overseas players, and you see what can be achieved by good coaching rather than plugging gaps. Which is a throw back to early SL years. We're lucky to have coaches like Nathan Brown, Micheal MacGuire and Tony Smith in this country, when you look at what they are achieving with largely English squads. '"
I understand what you are saying but these bigger clubs have had the advantage of taking their pick of the best young British talent for decades. I know many years ago Salford offered a 17 year old Shaun Edwards a massive deal and he turned it down and signed for less money at Wigan. How many more has there been Adrian Morley, Callum Watkins etc. It's similar in Football where the hottest young talent wants to play for Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea. Although there is always a few top quality players that slip through the net or develop later and that's what Salford should be looking for.
Personally I think our club's junior development has come on leaps and bounds in recent years under Alan Hunte. There is nothing more I like to see than young local players given a chance and taking it. Realistically all Salford can do is sign the best kids they can and then ensure they put as much investment into their development as possible.
I know it must seem like I'm defending the club but it's very easy to make comparisons (with big clubs) and criticise but sometimes you have to be realistic and put it down to the hand you are dealt. I think Salford have got to look to emulate what Huddersfield have achieved after some years of growth in a new stadium. Would these quality kids they have now signed for them if they were still at Fartown without the financial muscle of Ken Davy?
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| The original question was about the new franchise,as of this morning we know that widnes will be joining the super league,and the way they will get a squad strong enough is that they will do the same as everybody else, they will sound out the aussie agents and bring over another planeload of second -rate aussies,with a couple of academy kids to keep the league quiet.
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| JUDK: more possible could be quiet and hidden "nods" to certain very good SL players unhappy at their club ; especailly if out of contract by October. (SR?)
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| You are probably right hillbilly, but i am still willing to bet that widnes start super league with at least half a team from aus wether recruited from other super league clubs or from australia.If we lose any they will be replaced by more of the same.
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| I'd also like to add that Widnes will probably end up at least half a dozen players from the Superleague team that loses their license.
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| In answer to the Post title ,No.
1. because I promised myself I would't get myself in the same state as the 2008 announcement!
2. because I think the club has done ' enough' to get the nod until 2015. and if not it's too late to change anything as the bids will have gone in today for the existing SL clubs .
3. because I promised myself this season I would try my best to concentrate on the on field activities of the club and try and enjoy the season for the rugby , not the politics ..
Re Widnes ,
I think they won't rely on journeymen Auusies at all
they have the makings of a good academy setup and I think they will blood there lads if they are strong enough.
They are most likely to take fringe younger players from other SL clubs ( not unlike us with Ashley Gibson / Jodie Broughton ) .
They will throw money at Myler to tempt him back before 2015..
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| Always liked Widnes they got relegated and we got Aaron 'Aaron' Moule!
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| Quote ="king of the shed"No i suppose that all depends and what you class as an [ioverseas[/i player, don't forget Olsi Kransniqi who was born in Albania and Lamont Bryan who was born in Germany and plays international rugby for Jamaica
'"
Kransniqi is a migrant to the UK who has gone to school here and played for England at U16 and England Academy. He is a Harlequins junior not someone who has been bought in as an overseas developed player.
As for Lamont Bryan playing for Jamica well it is a good job we let our Irish internationals Karl Fitzpatrick and Stuart Littler move on.
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| I couldn't help but notice you didn't question the comment I made about Catalans?
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| Quote ="Ocker"Kransniqi is a migrant to the UK who has gone to school here and played for England at U16 and England Academy. He is a Harlequins junior not someone who has been bought in as an overseas developed player.
As for Lamont Bryan playing for Jamica well it is a good job we let our Irish internationals Karl Fitzpatrick and Stuart Littler move on.'"
You are Ian Foot the immigration officer from 'Come Fly With Me' and I'll collect my £5 Three cheers for wikipedia hip, hip
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| Quote ="Ocker"Kransniqi is a migrant to the UK who has gone to school here and played for England at U16 and England Academy. He is a Harlequins junior not someone who has been bought in as an overseas developed player.
As for Lamont Bryan playing for Jamica well it is a good job we let our Irish internationals Karl Fitzpatrick and Stuart Littler move on.'"
Fook me it was a joke hence the wink
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| Quote ="king of the shed"Fook me it was a joke hence the wink
'"
Sorry no offence intended.
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| Quote ="theredshed"I understand what you are saying but these bigger clubs have had the advantage of taking their pick of the best young British talent for decades. I know many years ago Salford offered a 17 year old Shaun Edwards a massive deal and he turned it down and signed for less money at Wigan. How many more has there been Adrian Morley, Callum Watkins etc. It's similar in Football where the hottest young talent wants to play for Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea. Although there is always a few top quality players that slip through the net or develop later and that's what Salford should be looking for.
Personally I think our club's junior development has come on leaps and bounds in recent years under Alan Hunte. There is nothing more I like to see than young local players given a chance and taking it. Realistically all Salford can do is sign the best kids they can and then ensure they put as much investment into their development as possible.
I know it must seem like I'm defending the club but it's very easy to make comparisons (with big clubs) and criticise but sometimes you have to be realistic and put it down to the hand you are dealt. I think Salford have got to look to emulate what Huddersfield have achieved after some years of growth in a new stadium. Would these quality kids they have now signed for them if they were still at Fartown without the financial muscle of Ken Davy?'"
I agree, largely, with what you are saying. The signing of young players isn't just down to financial capability, it's what the club can offer in terms of player development. This is where Hunte has been a massive success. We just need a first team coach that can move our young players from SL potential to SL quality. McRae hasn't been capable of this from day one, hence the reason we lost Turner.
Morley was a big miss by the club, if he'd been offered a contract I reckon he would have signed it. Kallum Watkin just sounds like it was one big mess, but Shaun Edwards was destined to play for Wigan.
As for Hudds they are the model of how to build a SL team. You can't rely solely on producing SL standard players from within the club, but they've spent money wisely. The acquistions they have made recently, really improve the standard of their rugby and have generally been pretty good. Luke O'Donnell looks a much better player than Willie Mason currently does.
We're not too far away, we just need to stop signing the likes of Jeremy Smith or Willie Talau. The latter did well when he played, we just didn't see enough of him, a reccurance of which seems to be happening with Anderson and possibly Feka. They still have time on their side, though, and with a little more on-field success I'm sure we can start to bring better quality signings into the club on a more regular basis. Rather than the hit and miss situation we currently have.
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| Apparently another Championship side could come up? Probably Halifax, if two come up and two SL sides go out we have to be one of them?
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| Quote ="PHOTO FINISH"[iWIDNES VIKINGS
HALIFAX
BARROW RAIDERS...[/i'"
Barrow didnt meet criteria so cant come up.
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| Quote ="theredshed"No I'm not in the least bit nervous. I must admit I was extremely nervous last time around and I would feel the same again but for our new stadium now being built.
Personally I think there is an imbalance in Superleague with too many yorkshire clubs and i feel one of them will miss out. Wakefield and Castleford have really let down the RL with years of false promises about new stadia and no result (Probably through no fault of their own). I feel this will give both clubs a big black mark. Further to this Wakey went into administration and Castleford are now offering timely' big spin' with further promises due to all the setbacks and the RL will see straight through their desperate exaggerations. This 50 million ground sale must be the spin of the century, I read on the Cas forum they are selling Whelden Road for no more than 6m-6.5m and the rest must include the cost of the supermarket, the new stadium and god knows what else they can add to it. I'm sure both clubs will eventually get new stadiums but I can't see either happening before 2013.
I was of the same opinion last time around that Superleague can't afford two teams so close together, especially considering it's not a massively populated area. My opinion hasn't changed and before someone mentions Hull I see them as stronger clubs financially with both clubs attracting good support over the years.
I think the RL will consider Salford to have more potential for attracting new support in a new stadium in a more prominent area of Greater Manchester, offering such a large conurbation of potential. This said if we do get the new license it's up to the club to fully maximise the opportunity a new stadium could offer or I fear we could be a future casualty in 2014.
As much as I've always liked Wakefield as a club If I was a betting man my money would firmly be on them losing out this time around. (On the grounds they have two black marks to Castleford's one, plus Cas are a stronger team than Wakey at this moment)'"
Castleford have never tried to spin that we are getting 50m for the stadium, cas haven't said how much they are getting, other than that it will be enough to pay for the stadium in one go (with the other funding we have). The 50m thing was just lazy and incompetent journalism.
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| Quote ="pyeman"Castleford have never tried to spin that we are getting 50m for the stadium, cas haven't said how much they are getting, other than that it will be enough to pay for the stadium in one go (with the other funding we have). The 50m thing was just lazy and incompetent journalism.'"
Fair enough and for what it's worth I don't think you have anything to lose sleep over between now and July.
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