I agree and therein lies the flaw of announcing a club will be switched.
If every club is doing what you ask in either league it makes you look a bit daft or promoting a hidden agenda...
I know a lot of people who lost faith with the game after the loss of Promotion and Relegation and fear mishandling this round of franchises could see the loss of a lot more.

So the answer is ?

what? did you actually read the post you have quoted? i wasnt talking about the wigan academy. nor was i making any sort of 'argument' never mind a 'pitiful' one. i was answering points and questions you yourself raised, points you raised in a rather illogical and nonsensical way i might add. merely highlighting the sheer INSANITY of stating that beasting wigan, leeds and saints academies all season means little because if we went up against wakeys academy from last year we would get twonked. i fail to understand how monumentally you have misinterpreted my point. in order to highlight the highly bull charged nature of this statement, i was refering to wigan winning this seasons grand final, and how your statement makes about as much sense as saying wigan have nothing to be proud of because they didnt beat last years winners in the final (for example)
try READING before you get y with me.

I'm not sure they did that. Unless 'beasting' means something different in Widnes slang than it does round here …

Thanks tb I did wonder if it was just me.
I hope to god they used protection though.
The thought of some Wigan/Widnes half breed is all rather worrying.

Franchising is whole different can of worms to licensing.

If you follow the American model there is no reason why St Helens, for example, could not be up sticks and placed in Plymouth (Yes finance etc comes into it) but if a multi billionaire wanted to do that and had the guarantees and pay the franchise fees then it's possible.

Licensing means you have to maintain a set of criteria and if you fail you lose.

Thats funny I've read your post over and over and cannot find any reference to Wigin winning the GF, in fact all I have read is a lot of selective misquoting and back peddling on your part and the only bull flying about on here is from you with your big words trying to disguise the cr@p your spouting and as for getting y, there is only one person getting y here squire and that's you hth.

Promotion and relegation. Simples.

Licencing/Franchising is a joke. But then I would say that wouldn't I. I'm angry that the current set up of our sport means that we are all forced to accept mediocrity in it's various forms. Mediocrity is hurting our game.

Harlequins - mediocre but don't worry, you'll always be in the top flight.
Catalan Dragons - mediocre but don't worry, you'll always be in the top flight.
Crusaders - As long as you stay on the left hand side of the border you'll be ok.

I'm afraid I hanker for the old days where it was three up, three down. It wasn't perfect but it was the best thing we had. It meant teams had something to aim for. Mediocre meant you could be relegated. Mediocre meant something. Success meant something. Rugby League meant something.

Good debate and an interesting read across board, as a Widnes fan tbf sometimes it's better to stay out of every franchise debate to stop it swaing off topic sometimes



On this point about what if the current 14 are already better... do you not think the RFL have already decided it was not the case? We our led to believe last time some sides were given the benefit of the doubt over new stadiums? And the bids go in, in just a few weeks time and as far as I am aware not a single brick will have been laid by then, so did the RFL look at that and just say a few months back, look we are being serious here and are actually forcing these clubs hands a little?

Heh, let's face it if they kept the same 14 despite numerous broken promises by various clubs it would destroy our game below SL, as some clubs only have the faintest hopes of seeing a SL future, yet if this was the case they would give up! Why should Fev for example worry about extending the stadium for a SL bid when Wakey & Cas haven't and still stayed in SL (EXAMPLE)

Why should Leigh & Halifax worry about setting up a fully fledged and funded youth set up when at the end of the day someone like Salford has rarely shown an interest in really pushing on their yet staying in SL?

If you wan't this franhise to work you need some accounatbility to the SL clubs (who voted for it). Plus I don't think they have said it out of the blue, the RFL have obviously reviewd a few business plans and how clubs have developed on various front over the past 2/3 years and clearly decided it's time for a change and by announcing it early it gave a few more Championship clbs like Halifax and Featherstone a real extra desire to push ahead with plans dreaming of a top flight return... which can only be a good thing?

You're ok J20 - as I said on the Fax board you knew the rules and have set sail accordingly. If it's you (and lets face it, it will be you) then bravo.

If it's us (which is highly unlikely), even after ticking what has seemed to be moving boxes then I'll allow myself a small bravo but then settle in for some mediocrity safe in the knowledge they'd not chuck us out after three years or else it would appear they had made some kind of mistake.

The RFL don't like admitting to making mistakes even though they've made plenty and will continue to do so.

Widnes have an extremely wealthy owner and the vikings posted a profit of over £1m last year. The Vikings have made it clear that they will be at or close to full salary cap in 2012. Whereas:

Wakefield have an owner in an IVA and the club has faced 2 winding up orders with the HMRC in less than 12 months. The club are unlikely to be at full cap in 2011.

The RFL do not need to know that the championship bid is 'better'. The championship bid needs to be above set standards. If there are more than one club above the standards (unlikely) then the highest placed club gets a licence. Any remaining championship clubs above the standards + the SL clubs that submit an application are considered for the remaining 13 places.

Are you overspending your cap?



So would these clubs be assessed to Championship or SL criteria?

I still find it absurd that what actually happens on the field is seen as a total irrelevance, and even moreso by some of the posters on these forums.

Isn't the ACTUAL GAME the key selling point of Rugby League?

The 2nd batch are all assessed against each other and the best clubs out of those make up the other 13, so criteria would just be a guideline I guess. On the SL Criteria does that also answer the question on why should one team drop out? As not all side meet all of them and I guess the idea is if you do your safe if you don't your not (I bet it's a similar ratio to clubs meeting Championship criteria too).

I know, I'm afraid that a lot of people who use this board can readily accept limitations which would seem absurd if taken into another sport.

Just imagine.......

[iBlackpool FC were informed that they have been cruelly removed from the Premier League today after it was decided that the North West had too many clubs in the league. Their place will be given to Bristol City as part of their South West expansion plans.

Meanwhile Bolton FC have been given a stay of execution after relocating to West Yorkshire. Their place in the top flight had also been under threat but after relocating to Bradford this means that top flight Premier League action returns once more to West Yorkshire.[/i

You are an old man flipping retard.
Where's Leighs fantastic shiny application.. oh wait.. ... ... ... ...

So would the final 13 be assessed against the SL or Champ criteria?

(Hypothetical Warning)
You could end up with 4 or 5 Champ 'A' grades against Championship criteria replacing 4 or 5 SL lower grades and thus have a revolving SL where teams change every 3 years...I would hazard a guess Cas/Wakey/Salford/Quins/Celtic/Catalans/Bulls could easily manage to reach the top grade against Champ criteria

Erm Dico....not sure how to put this but are you confusing Leighfan with Leaguefan?

Regardless of the team that Leaguefan supports (which I assume to be Keighley Cougars) the point remains. Shouldn't performance on the pitch be the deciding factor. You after all only have to go back a few years when you were struggling at the bottom of the league in a stadium viewed to be out of date (but so much more atmospheric than your new ground).

What happened at Warrington to change things?

If you have to have won something to be eligible to apply for a licence.....
Would it be sensible (drag me out and shoot me now!!) that you should have been in the bottom 2 in SL or have had financial problems to be considered for the drop?

Good stuff Walton Tiger. Yes it would be very sensible to be considered for the drop if you have finished in the bottom two. Perhaps a two up, two down system might work.

Those goal posts seem quite clear. Do well, get rewarded. Don't do well, get relegated. Get into financial difficulties - get points deducted.

Again, we tried P&R...IT DIDNT WORK.

Clubs ended up in all sorts of bother financially, many clubs didnt have a hope of ever seeing Super League, ever, but would bankrupt themselves to try, fans were leaving the game at lower levels and the game was being dominated by two or three clubs...and thats after 30 years of trying this farcical system.

Licencing should at least be given a couple of rounds to see if it is better, surely.

IMO their should be a points system involved in both leagues yes... say Championship..

1 point NRC
2 points top of league
3 points Win Grand Final

Amd you need what 3 points to apply over 3 years (or something like that).

Then for SL...

League leaders 5 points
Playoff's 3 points
Playoff semi 5 points
Title win - 10 points
Cup Quaters 2 points
Cup semi 4 points
Cup win 7 points
Bottom 3 minus 3 points

And you need say 5 to avoid going down. Again very poorly done but something along those lines...

problem of course is what if no SL sides eligibel to go down but one Champ clubs dominates 3 years in league below?

Again just used as a guidline, i.e. you could say we have Fax with crowds of 2,500 playing at the Shay against SL Salford with 3,500 at the Willows, so you COULD say Fax would do better in SL based on that? If comapred to Cas with what 7,000 crowds and youth yo would say they would do no better based on those initial basic facts. That sort of thing, lol.

I can't see them putting up any British side who don't meet the Champ criteria anyway, it is eveb said once they submit these 'application forms' if they don't meet them the process stops there? Who knows?

Noooo.... .......
Put it how you like and this time lets allow people to think.

1) re-read the point
2) What didn't Leigh do
3) What do Leigh have

It doesn't need an apology as you weren't rude or anything. However I didn't think everything had to be explained in baby steps on this board

Plain and simply put Simon Moran going from a back seat investor to the clubs owner changed the fortunes at Wire

You only have to explain things in baby steps if you fail to make yourself clear Dico. Again, no need to apologise for failing to make yourself clear.

The point Leaguefan was making was performance on the field should count for something. Leigh didn't perform on the field when they needed to so despite having a new stadium they will have to wait until 2015 before having that Super League dream again.

If I've walked into a disagreement you have with Leaguefan then I'll back out now as I'm not here to argue, just to put my case forward for a return to P & R.