The nearest tube station is 3 miles away.... You should try getting on a train at twiceknham after an 82,000 full house and see how much fun it isn't at 9pm in the freezing rain, but let's discuss the getting there and back iss ue. Football fans have no issue with travel abroad at late notice, whilst union played a fi al in spain a few years back and got 67k for an Irish side v a french side.......but we struggle to attract only the core of our support to either magic or even the cc final..... So id argue that marketing it is the issue.

Thankyou for that informative response. Sounds like those involved in the game in London were massaging the figures somewhat

The answer is quite simple really Stephanie. Once the RFL pulled Development officers in the region and Sport England funding was removed, those schools that took up the game reverted back to Union, who were supportive through RFU grants. As with any declared participation numbers, the figures used back then were for every child who attended a rugby league lesson/training session and a great many PE teachers were happy to accept the offer of a session.

In real terms, participation in the South East at a competitive level is driven by the clubs, such as Greenwich Admirals, a legacy of the London Broncos. Without any fiscal support from the games governing body, such clubs fight hard to secure the attentions of local youth, who are courted by Union Soccer and a plethora of other pastimes.

Greenwich Admirals is where LMS first played the game and he is now in his testimonial year at St Helens, so the production line, no matter how hampered with a lack of central funding, does deliver.


As for your comments about London Fans. I live 12,000 miles away and yet probably attended more London Broncos games than you attended St Helens games in 2019

I've been with you all the way on here but we are poles apart. When we have been to Twickenham we did get there OK, we did stick around a bit whilst the crowds cleared and we did get home fine and we did it again. I do not agree with you at all that "Marketing" is our problem and it's a shame you don't acknowledge the immense number of people in and around London with a great affinity to Rugby Union. Marketing can encourage people to attend an event but in the end they decide. Sure Marketing is needed to sell a product, service or event but you forget that when we offer people an event like the Challenge cup final, they also have a myriad of choices other than that event. Marketing isn't a hypnotic mind changing method of persuasion it just puts something on offer in a good light, but people make the choice.

This is why I always say look at the big clubs marketing departments like Leeds, they do everything they can to pull the fans in but at the end of the day there comes a point when the cost of extra marketing isn't covered by the extra tickets sold accordingly.

I'll agree with you there, union actively tries to ensure league doesn't grow hence I don't think there'll ever be any professional players developed in North America. Someone said that the current London Broncos squad now had a significant number of London Lads in it but when I checked that they were some in the squad but not many in the first XV11. London have of course been around for nearly 40 years, yet they tell me TWP will have a good number of home grown players in 10-15 years. They clearly won't.

So once we are fully transatlantic (to get back on topic) it may save on travel costs if the NA home games games are all played the same weekend and vice versa so their squads AND their opponents can share just one aircraft and save on costs. Imagine all the SL players here travelling together to deliver a round of matches in North America!!

That's hilarious (and probably true).
LeBron is always somewhere else when Saints are playing, the Lake District being his preference.

I think you're confusing marketing with advertising somewhat. Advertising is the thing that you use to shout about yourself. Marketing is the thing that gives you something worth shouting about. They're very different things. People might ultimately make their own choice, but get the marketing right and you make it much easier for them to choose what you're offering. Apple don't make the best mobile phones, but they sell more of them than Samsung and Sony.

I agree that RL can't advertise its way out of the problems it has got itself in, but it can market its way out most of these problems.

What's clear is that RL is a product that has too many imperfections for the market it is operating in. Come out of the echo chamber of RLFANS and you realise that it isn't something that appeals to the sorts of audiences the game needs to start attracting if it is going to reverse the declining crowds, declining profile, declining participation and declining media attention.

Marketing is the thing that develops the sport to make it appeal to those new audiences. I think the evidence of our falling attendances and media profile show that we aren't doing that.

Marketing is the bit that develops the matchday experience so that people want to come back again and again. Compare the matchday experience at the CC Final to other events held at Wembley and tell me that we're coming across as cutting edge, fashionable and welcoming to new fans.

Marketing is the thing that makes it easier for people to "buy into" RL. At the moment, it's hard to do that if you don't live in a very small part of the country or have an expensive TV subscription - the sports digital presence is non-existant and it's difficult to buy decent merchandise without looking like a business card for a local skip hire firm.

Just shouting "TGG" at people, insisting "the product is right, we just need to shout about it", or thinking that cheaper tickets is going to help is not going to solve the problem. RL's appeal is getting less and less, the average age of our supporter is getting higher and higher, and the clubs seem too ignorant, reluctant and/or stubborn to do anything about it.

The Sport England participation figures weren’t that at all. Because they didn’t look at kids, they looked at 15-16 year olds and then 16+ was the main participation figures.
The criteria was participation once a week for those 16+ for Sport England figures.

Lets not be accusatory, the dictionary defines advertising as being a part of marketing. I've had a long career at the biggest and smallest companies (my own) and I did get a good enough grounding not to be "somewhat confused". I have worked at Mr. Caddick's sites including Headingley where I managed to speak to Mr. Hetherington but only "good morning sir". I admire these two guys - Mr. Caddicks climb from the bottom to the very top, and Mr. Hetheringtons admiral work at Sheffield and later guiding Leeds to fantastic success on and off the pitch.

With respect I don't think either you nor I could teach Mr. Hetherington a thing about marketing or advertising but despite that I would agree that "some" of the clubs are maybe "reluctant or stubborn" as far as their own marketing and advertising goes. I'd love to be an RL journalist and actually ask clubs about this and see what the issues are? See why Hetherington's best practice isn't being rolled out across the board, and see what Mr. Elstone is doing about this problem you raise as it may be part of his remit. Is RL's loss of appeal simply a social trend we just can't stop? Is pure survival a better measure of success than taking SL crowds to a 12,000 average? It just could be in the circumstances we are in?.

I'm of course happy to be corrected sir, but even more curious as to how did ths alleged success come about and what happened to it and why?

Quote ="Donnyman"I'll agree with you there, union actively tries to ensure league doesn't grow hence I don't think there'll ever be any professional players developed in North America. Someone said that the current London Broncos squad now had a significant number of London Lads in it but when I checked that they were some in the squad but not many in the first XV11. London have of course been around for nearly 40 years, yet they tell me TWP will have a good number of home grown players in 10-15 years. They clearly won't. So once we are fully transatlantic (to get back on topic) it may save on travel costs if the NA home games games are all played the same weekend and vice versa so their squads AND their opponents can share just one aircraft and save on costs. Imagine all the SL players here travelling together to deliver a round of matches in North America!!'" https://londonbroncosrl.com/first-team-squad/ You don't think many of these are from London. Not forgetting Walker has just gone to Wakey, plus one junior to Wigan. Only Battye on the bottom 2 rows i'snt from London

Quote ="Donnyman"I'll agree with you there, union actively tries to ensure league doesn't grow hence I don't think there'll ever be any professional players developed in North America. Someone said that the current London Broncos squad now had a significant number of London Lads in it but when I checked that they were some in the squad but not many in the first XV11. London have of course been around for nearly 40 years, yet they tell me TWP will have a good number of home grown players in 10-15 years. They clearly won't. So once we are fully transatlantic (to get back on topic) it may save on travel costs if the NA home games games are all played the same weekend and vice versa so their squads AND their opponents can share just one aircraft and save on costs. Imagine all the SL players here travelling together to deliver a round of matches in North America!!'" https://londonbroncosrl.com/first-team-squad/ You don't think many of these are from London. Not forgetting Walker has just gone to Wakey, plus one junior to Wigan. Only Battye on the bottom 2 rows i'snt from London

Hetherington is undoubtedly an astute guy, and a successful RL man. I think there are things that he and Leeds do very well, and things that they do less well. I think the club has really dropped the ball on PR in recent years, for example. But I've also seen the work they do first hand through one of my previous agencies, and there are things they can do better in my view.

As for why what Leeds do isn't being rolled out, I think there are a lot of reasons. Leeds' business model is very different to most RL clubs - you only have to look at how Headingley has been remodelled to see what the priorities for the club are. The club isn't interested in a "bums on seats" mentality that most clubs are, and much more interested in a "three-course dinners in front of wealthy clients" mentality. The new corporate faclities at Headingley are better than those at many Premier League football clubs. Most clubs couldn't do that to anything like the scale Leeds do.

I think clubs should be accountable for their own business models and for that reason, I don't see it as Elstone's job. At best, his remit is to ensure that the structures are in place so that those clubs who can and do get it right can reap the rewards, rather than being held to the pace of the slowest man. That, in my view, is the way to change the zero-growth culture.

We can't just accept that RL is helplessly stuck in the midst of a social trend. There are things that can be done, but it needs some vision and gumption to do it. If we aren't, we end up like every other business that resigned itself to being "helplessly stuck in the midst of a social trend".

So.... Its been at least a week since they meeting cited in the above article....... Anyone heard anything as a result?

I love the way you put an emoji after every post. It’s cute. It’s like I’m getting a message off one of my daughters. In fact no it’s not because they can spell and use proper grammar

Then they're a credit to their mother then because you're no scholar!



...if you don't believe me, ask your kids. It should have read



If I keep on owning you, I will have to start charging you rent

I didn't say we should accept the idea RL is shall we say "dying anyway" but nor should we spend money on forms of marketing that do not get a return and create loss, as that only accelerates decline. If there are things that "Can be done" that have not been done, then you should really name them and explain them to the forum to take the debate forward?

Clubs have a very "local" audience and to be fair SL clubs run foundations funded by SKY to the tune of £300K a year, and staffed accordingly and they take the game into the communities and schools, which is a very direct form of promoting the game and a very direct form of changing the demographic from old beggars like me to parents and kids, so you must give the game credit for working with SKY to bring the next generation through. I always urge people to look up the club foundations because few people know they exist yet they are a brilliant effective idea.

I was watching the game (as a kid) when the amateur game was pub teams, and when play off games at top clubs like Saints, Leeds and Warrington attracted average crowds of about 4,500, clubs did nothing to promote a game except posters on walls and ads on buses. There was little opposition in those days, but today the lesiure market offers all sorts. I think we have moved with the times, I think we have done a great job in tough circumstances, and neither I nor you know if there really are any more ways to find customers we can squeeze from the market with cost effective promotions. If there are though, I'd bank on Gary Hetherington finding them and trying them.

[url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12295138More news from New York[/url....but noything about them being accepted, having a ground to play in, who the sponsors are, the airline, the hotel chain.....just more headline grabbing marketing.
On this point, I reckon his anti-homosexual stance will make him a real cult hero in NYC

[i"In April British clubs voted in favour of New York and Ottawa joining their domestic league structure which already includes the Toronto Wolfpack, which joined in 2017".[/i

This isn't accurate is it? Only the Championship voted to accept Toronto, Superleague clubs never voted for them. Superleague clubs didn't want Toronto they preferred Toulouse. New York (if they are real) won't start until 2021 and that's the year the SKY deal will come to an end and drop heavily. There'll be only enough English TV money, for about 10 English SL clubs 2022 so where will New York or Ottawa come into the equation let alone TWP? If these clubs have ambitions for Superleague they should agree them with Superleague, but I aren't sure that in all the three years we have had TWP, they've even spoken to the Superleague bosses? What is going on?

To be fair. London never had a ground to play in. They just borrowed a local park and that got them in to SL

It's a wedding venue actually. Did you visit on either of the 2 defeats at said venue when the Champions visited this year? Maybe you only went to the home game where half the stadium was empty?

I have made it perfectly clear on here numerous times that I will never visit London due to the amount of stabbings and crime in the city. It wont be long until the home office issue travel warnings about visiting there like they do with Mogadishu, Pakistan, Syria and Iraq

I’ve lived here for 6 years - not been stabbed once.

You don’t even visit St Helens.

BTW - Was that you who i nodded to today in the mall?