You really dont seem to understand the way it was , yes W1g4n did buy the title and cup for several years , but they didnt have the money to susstain it , they were on the verge of going bust , yes the only club at that time that could financially compete with them was Leeds , and it shows how bad they were that it took them so long between titles

Has SL and SKY money made the game better ? , very hard to tell , the world and the way people find their entertainment has changed so much in the last 15/20 years it cannot be a conclusive answer , we have had no choice , just as other sports have had to change

Could we have done a better job of it ? yes , could we have done a worse job of it ? , yes as well

Will things improve in the next 15 years ? , no , we'll still have a few clubs dominating , a few more bouncing along making up the numbers , and then a dozen or so others surviving just

And we still wont have won a major International trophy

Bradford went bust in the pre-summer Golden era as well. I think the problem then was general lack of support rather than a tax bill and some unfortunate, albeit arguably avoidable, events.

Yes and some clubs especially - that said without the greed displayed over the duration of SL it could have been far far better for all the game and not just the few.

There are a few different topics that need to be separated here I suppose. Firstly that of the success of summer rugby, as opposed to winter rugby....and secondly that of the franchised SL compared to traditional league structures.

I personally think that Summer rugby has been the backbone of the success stories that have rejuvenated some teams. However, the pressures of a 'Superleague' and the requirements of a franchise system have been at the heart of the negative aspects of the current era.

Has summer rugby been a success? I really don't know.

I'd love to know how much money was in the game in the early 1990's compared to what there is in the game now. Does anyone have any stats on this to compare the t/o of rugby league clubs pre SL and post SL?

What about at International level? Once upon a time Great Britain could play Australia at Wembley and sell it out. No chance of that these days.

If we believe Eddy & Stevo the game is fitter, faster and more powerful than pre SL. Is it really?

I dunno. I'm kind of sick of debating it to be honest because at the end of the day most peoples views are centred around their own club.

The game is fitter, faster and more powerful than it was in 2006. 1996 is another era entirely.

Poor choice of words from me there. Agreed that it is definately fitter, faster and more powerful.

Has it improved skills? And by that I mean the skill of drawing defence, passing, moving etc. I don't think it has. I think the game has lost some of the shine since players became more athletic.

Overall it'd be difficult to tell - but Martin Offiah on twitter last season was absolutely adamant that players back then were earning a lot more money than they do now. He knows, because he's seen the contracts (I guess by virtue of having been a player himself, and now being a player agent negotiating the contracts).

Whether that was true at all clubs, or even between all players at the top clubs who were paying out more than they could sustain in player wages, it would be difficult to say without the disclose of facts & figures from the players involved - and let's face it, why should they be inclined to do so, and what right would we have to ask it of them?

The defences have improved dramatically in terms of being organised. I love watching old clips of Gregory and Edwards dropping the shoulder and chiming through the line, but could they do it so often now with less gaps to run through and less unfit props to take advantage of?

I think some of the ball handling of today is sometimes breathtaking, the way Warrington and Wigan move the ball can be lightening fast. BUT, I think some of the older players were much better at reading the game, they seemed to have a better 'RL brain'.

It takes us back to that old question... how good would the legends of the past be with the modern training and fitness programmes. Hanley was a freak but if he was playing now he could be bigger, stronger, fitter but still with his ability.

Interesting example - I would argue the opposite, that Hanley would be less effective (rather than more) in today's game.

He would, because the defence would be more structured.

That is why the likes of Slater and Tomkins are so special. To be able to cut through teams who are so well organised is just sensational. Slater would of had a field day back in the 80'.

Yes. I do.



Oh, at least a decade or so ...



So we were on the cusp of going from one club dominating the domestic game in the top flight to another doing so by virtue of financial collapse? Whereas what [ihas[/i happened is that (if you will) the trophies have been shared out rather more widely and Wigan have survived – see Odem's very good post on that – and other clubs have caught up; the playing field [ihas[/i been leveled out at least somewhat. We haven't gone from a situation of one club dominating to another doing so.



I'd largely agree with this. And there will be much about the question of whether the game is 'better' that will be subjective. Personally, I'd say that, by and large, it is better. I think more games where the outcome is not obvious is a help. I think there is increased – and increasing – intensity. Summer rugby has been good, in my opinion (see – I'm making it quite clear where I know I'm being subjective

), for a host of reasons, including better surfaces on which to play fast, running rugby. With the exception of mud wrestling, I don't want to see any of 'my' sports played in bogs.



And fair enough again with this. It's impossible to disagree.



Now on this, I'm rather less in agreement. First, because we simply don't know. So many things could happen – or not. But you see I also think that, in saying: "we'll still have a few clubs dominating" you're falling into a trap of not really acknowledging that "a few" is actually massive progress from where we were a decade or so ago. Perhaps that's also the way it happens in team sports universally? I wouldn't swear to it, but I cannot think, off the top of my head, of a team sport where there is not a situation of a certain group of 'elite' (if you will) clubs dominating for X period of time.



We weren't winning them by the pot load beforehand ...

One might also add that nutritional and training knowledge have developed and he might be even bigger and stronger now.

Better is bait subjective, obviously they are fitter and stronger as full time v part time, but in my opinion the game was a better game to watch years ago.

If you go back 25 + years we didn't have just a few dominating , we had different clubs winning things all the time , so is the game better now than 15 years ago ? , yes , better than 30 years ago ? , NO

So true we dont want to return to the dark days of 1 club domination , but we wont ever get to the way it once was which was better than now

Either way , it is what it is , and people will either choose to spend their money watching it or not

Its difficult to make a real comparison, as we are looking at semi-pros and full time pros and a winter v summer game. We all have our opinion, but unfortunately we are not the ones who can make a real difference to how the game is played. We are all, also, guilty of looking at things through rose tinted glasses and saying "things were better when I was young". As a 70 year old I'm as guilty as anyone else of this, but would much sooner see athletes (which is what the modern players are), playing tghe game on good, hard surfaces. Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

It's easy to claim SL is a roaring success comparing it to one of the worst periods in modern RL.

Surely if we hope to achieve anything we should be measuring ourselves against the time when British RL was at its finest (50's/60s)?

Let's see how [ithat [/iargument stacks up.

the game is almost unrecognisable from the one I started watching in the early 70s. Watching games like the 77 CC final is like watching a different game, the attacking lines are so deep and that the defences sit back which made for some fantastic attacking football. That does not detract from the speed and pressure of the modern game and defences in particular. There have of course been substantial rule changes and that is part of our game which hasnt been afraid to innovate and change one of the things which makes our TGG. The emphasis was on the challenge cup and I think the move to a GF format has been fantastic. The GF is arguably one of THE sporting fixtures in the UK now and sends a shiver down the spine every year.

Spot on. All the modern methods make players better athletes.

No one doubts that players are bigger and the game is faster. But given that players are now fully pro you'd expect such. The question of fitness is debatable, I think. If we could take an average the argument would certainly swing in SL's favour. But there are many stories from yesteryear in which ahead-of-their-time coaches successfully instituted formidable training regimes. Against such cases the gap may well be quite narrow or perhaps non-existent.

The point about rule changes is extremely important because a coach must tailor his training to squeeze the absolute maximum from the rules. Forty years ago Rugby League was a far more specialised sport. Which meant it would be senseless to concentrate solely on size, speed, athleticism and fitness in training.

Keiron Cunningham will go down as one of the greatest players of the modern age. A tremendous physical specimen gifted with pace, power, size, agility and an eye for the line. But if Cunningham could somehow be transported back in time to the 60s how many coaches would take him in exchange for their possibly slow and overweight first choice number nine who understood the complex technical skills of hooking a ball (crucial for any side wishing to retain possession), not to mention the black arts of scrummaging? My guess is - none.

I'm somewhat cynical about the word "innovation" as it sounds a bit too close to "progress" - and not all progress is necessarily good. Older fans of the sport have often criticised today's game precisely because of its lack of specialisation with far too much time devoted to physical training and far too little spent on basic and role-specific skills. I think this is a perfectly valid criticism. Moreover, I'd argue lack of individual specialisation has made RU's goal of attracting top League talent that much easier - but that's another issue.

It's comforting to think changes made to RL over the past two decades have somehow made the game "better". We've certainly got a different game on our hands. But it's nonsensical to argue [ienjoyment[/i levels have somehow increased because of these changes.

You can't compare the game to the 1950s/60s. In that era people were much less mobile, so local RL clubs did not really compete with the big soccer teams for crowds. For many in Warrington, going to Manchester or Liverpool to watch soccer on a Saturday was simply impossible, hence the big crowds at RL for games that also kicked off on Saturdays at 3pm. The glamour that attached itself to soccer from the early 60s onwards came along just as ordinary folks were acquiring cars and therefore getting more choice as to how to spend their leisure time and money. I would guess that disparity in wages (between RL and soccer ) also accelerated in this period,taking talent away from rugby.

Overall the playing standards are now higher than I recall ( I started watching in 1967 ). watching old video of the Challenge Cup Final in 1974, for instance, I'm struck by the apparent lack of organisation and seemingly 'off-the-cuff' tactics. Fun to watch, but we were soon taught a 1980s lesson by the Aussies as to why that wouldn't cut it in the late 10th Century.

what's the quantifiable measure to apply the comparison to, though? even spread of championship/cup winners? national side success rate? crowd levels (peaks & troughs, as opposed to averages?)? number of clubs going bust/in to administration?

To try and say whether RL is "better" during any particular era is entirely subjective and a matter of your own opinion, which would be heavily influenced by what you deem to be 'better'.

Surely a better question to be asked would be: What could we do to improve the on-field competitiveness across the board in Rugby League.

An additional question could be: How can we make Rugby League more commercially successful at all levels?

Sounds good. When I've finished comparing the book I'm reading to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles I'll have a crack at it.

I have watch rugby league for 45 years or more and i have loved every minute but apart from the stars of yesterday I don't want to go back to watching the old games, give me super and summer rugby league all the time thanks

Of course it's subjective. As are any number of other questions we ask in life the answers to which depend entirely on opinion - yet, decisions are still made (often on the strength of one person's rhetoric above another's.)



Aren't you just replacing one subjective question with another? In any case it doesn't automatically follow that increased competitiveness (which is measured, not to mention agreed upon, how?) will bestow untold benefits on the sport. It sounds plausible. But there are any number of additional factors (economic, training, development etc.) that all need to fall into line as well.



Was the game "commercially successful" when were pulling 100,000 fans into Odsal? Serious question, BTW.