Maybe not, but Wigan and Leeds both have 10000 or more season ticket holders yet each can only around 6000 to a cup semi final. If you are a season ticket holder at your club I can't understand why you wouldn't want to attend a semi final? If the fans who are supposedly 'nuts about the game' don't want to turn up, what are the chances of attracting any new support?

Traveled up from london and the atmosphere in the wigan end was brilliant. Atmosphere was electric.

Shame result didn't go our way.

Gotta admit I was shocked at the turn up when I arrived. 12k is not good but how the hell anyone can blame the RFL I don't know.

People seem to just wanna blame them for everything.

I think there is an element of final fatigue at the "top" clubs, but you can't dismiss the effects of the economy either. Now admittedly the tickets are relatively cheap but the other costs associated with going (fuel/transport, food & drink etc) are all going up.
Add those elements together and it's not surprising that crowds are down from 8-10 years ago.
For example, over the last 10 seasons Leeds fans (and other clubs like Saints will have similar figures I'm sure) have had 8 Challenge Cup Semi Finals, 5 Challenge Cup Finals, 17 Playoff games, 6 Grand Finals & 5 World Club Challenges to "pay out" for, that's a lot and after a while, if money is tight, I can understand the reasoning behind staying at home and watching it on tv with a few beers. I don't think it's a co-incidence that games on a season ticket are well attended, and those not on it are less well attended in general.

If someone invented a great product, all seemed good, etc. but for some reason it just wasn't selling, you'd be encouraging that person to find out what the heck was going on so that they could do justice to their product. If they said to me " I've done everything right, its the customers fault " then I'd tell them they were going to fail unless they got their head out their backside and accepted that something - perhaps yet unknown - could be done to improve things, and if they wanted to succeed it was their job to find out. Blaming the customers would be the most useless waste of time. If you call that 'blaming', fine, I call it common sense.

It was great to see many Leeds and Wigan fans enjoying the Huddersfield Carnival on Saturday.
Sadly this was marred with the arrival of some Wigan Ultra fans. They portrayed a very negative image and just reminded me of the hooligan element that is so prevalent in football. I didn't see them causing any trouble but the way they marched and chanted was aggressive and asking for trouble. Not sure what Wigan as a club could do but I certainly hope that these type of fans don't become the norm.

Not too long back a Wembley trip was an annual event for most Working mens clubs/Amateur clubs across the North, as was the big internationals at Wembley or Old Trafford.
Remember the 100k gates, and the sell outs at all seater Wembley for the CC, and the 50k plus's at OT and Wembley - was the best 72k v Aussies.
A united game is essential for our future.

It is, however many of your views are shared by few

There's been just one 100k gate, and it wasn't at Wembley. The Cup Final crowds have remained pretty similar for decades, the difference is in the earlier rounds and especially the semis where the crowds have dropped off.

You are indeed correct, it was interesting that in the decade of decline 78-88 whilst the capacity was high 8 gates were above 90k with a high of 99,801, not quite 100k. Is that period in your 'decades'?

Yes it does.
The average crowd for a Wembley final from 1945/46 (when it leapt in popularity) to 1999 is about bang on 83,000.

The average crowd for a Wembley final in the new Wembley is roughly 81,500.

So 80,000 paying souls in a stadium 200 miles from the clubs' "heartlands",with a few more million watching it live on freeview/terrestrial. A clear sign that the Cup is dead.

Yep. I blame the RFL.

I understand the 80k paying souls includes those that didn't go but have club wembley etc and hence have already paid for the CCF in the debenture. These were obviously not used to inflate crowds in the good old days before the RFL ruined life in general. I too blame the RFL.

Thats because it was not the same teams getting there year in year out you had Cas, Hull KR, Fev, Fax, Widnes, Wakefield and Hull getting there but since SL its been dominated by 4 clubs Bradford, Leeds, St Helens, Wigan and now you can add a 5th in Warrington. Plus the game was still well supported in now forgotten (by SL fans and the RFL) places like Halifax, Oldham, Barrow and Featherstone.
Fax took 30K plus fans in 1987 and about as many in 1988 cos it was and maybe still is a RL town.
I go every year have done since 1978 and I have noticed a big decline in fans of the other clubs that used to go as neutrals and you never saw that many empty seats all around the stadium, yer you had some clubs not as well supported but now some people don't even attend the game but must have bought a ticket or been given a complimentary one.
Blimey they have to offer discounts and free tickets for buying so many now and still cannot get the crowds that Wembley got back in the eighties and nineties, yet the RFL claim the game is expanding!
The RFL are deluded but I am sure some on here will say I am a dinosaur and shout me down cos they believe everything the RFL tell them. If you think inflating crowds is a good thing take a look at our bitter rivals over the hill = Bradford and how it is nearly killing them for selling half price season tickets just so they can publish bigger crowd figures!

Me too, i definitely blame the RFL for the FA selling the club Wembley seats to help fund the 2nd largest stadium in Europe at a cost of £800m. That bloody Richard Lewis. He is lucky he left before people find out WRU selling debentures to fund the building of the Millenium Stadium and Arsenal selling them to fund the emirates, the bounder.

Its frightening how many people are keen to let the RFL off the hook for their lack of inspiration, lack of leadership, and abandonment of the areas where people (used to?) care about Rugby League. My 'favourite' is "how can it be the RFL's fault if fans dont want to turn up?" That's as useless as a shopkeeper saying its not his fault nobody buys his stuff, and just as likely to cause stagnation and decline in a fog caused by a general lack of self-awareness.

Given the RFL have introduced a salary cap at the top level, how is it then their fault that teams haven't been able to exploit that levelling of the competition? The reason why those teams have been successful is because they have invested in good coaching set ups to enable this. Admittedly these clubs have bigger finances that the rest but what is stopping the others clubs from building their businesses to compete? Aside from the management of the game, with the salary cap how are the RFL then responsible for the underperformance of some teams?

I knew we had common ground, string Lewis up by the danglies from the Bobby Moore statue I say, put a collection bucket below for donations to Bradford on the 25th.

I also thank you for confirming that Club Wembley seats used or not are included in the crowd declared at the CCF lowering the actuals by probably over 10,000 meaning we are attracting 70k now to CCF at Wembley.

I will be sat in our Gold Debenture seats shouting on the Chris Hill inspired Wire this year, give me a wave.

2010 85k+ watched Leeds V Warrington last time round.

Not if 10k plus Club Wembley didn't show up.

The crowd declared is, funnily enough, the crowd that attends.

The tickets freely available for the RFL and rugby league fans for any Wembley Final is 72,000. That leaves a MAXIMUM of another 18,000 or so. The RFL does not have any jurisdiction on how the remaining Club Wembley etc tickets are sold or distributed, but very many of them are either used by debenture holders, or sold through entertainment packages and the like.

As proof that you are talking out of your arris, take 2010. So far as the RFL was concerned, it was a sellout. In other words, all 72,000 saleable tickets were sold.

If you were right, therefore, the official attendance would have been a capacity 90,000. Agreed? However it was 85,217. This means that in fact on top of the 72,000, another 13,217 seats were used by owners, or sold through other outlets. And 4000-odd weren't.

But don't let me stop you from believing your nutty conspiracy theory.

My recollection of recent finals have been many empty seats, plus a sply populated club section this seems to be supported by what clips are on the well known site. This then seems to make your comments total bullpooh - but at least thats consistent for you.

Domination of the competition by a couple of clubs has killed interest. Look at the semis over the years:

2012: Leeds, Wigan, Huddersfield, Warrington
2011: Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Castleford
2010: Leeds, Wigan, Warrington, Catalans
2009: Warrington, Huddersfield, Wigan, St Helens
2008: Hull FC, Wakefield, St Helens, Leeds

so in the last 5 seasons we have, in the last four

Leeds: 4/5 years
Wigan: 4/5 years
St Helens: 3/5 years
Warrington: 3/5 years
Huddersfield: 2/5 years
Hull FC: 1/5 years
Wakefield: 1/5 years
Catalans: 1/5 years

so we have basically four dominant clubs who will usually knock one of themselves out before the semis, and the other 3 will contest them.

A better statistic might be that not since 2008 have only two of the group of Wigan, Warrington, St Helens & Leeds made the semis

This is the problem. How you solve it is another matter. Generally among Rhinos fans there was an attitude of 'it's our 4th semi in 5 years, been to the Galpharm plenty, if we win I'll go to Wembley, if not, who cares, can save money and watch it on Telly'.

How do you solve that? You could take it off the telly, but that'd be even worse for national exposure. You could but the CC on sky, getting more money in, and more people to go along to it, but that'd be 90% of terrestrial RL coverage gone.

I think a better way to go might be to try and drive expansion of the competition. We have enough clubs to make a full 8-round tournament workable. Enter all Championship & Championship 1 clubs plus the SL, then you have 34 teams. National Conference is 44, then the 10 teams of the French Elite Championship, then qualifying for 10 teams from the regional conferences.

From 64 teams you run a random-draw knockout competition over 6 rounds, leading to a final at Wembley. This means that a lot of non-SL clubs will get a high-profile game against SL opposition, or that they'll at least get a game against a team likely to bring some fans, and generate some press coverage. Organise to screen 2 games per round with the BBC. This presents a great opportunity for 'the spirit of the cup', for instance Warrington Wizards v Warrington Wolves, played at Wilderspool, or London Skolars v London Broncos, played at Brisbane Road, etc.

This means 1) that fans of big clubs are likely to have new away trips they haven't done before/regularly, 2) that some cup upsets will occur (e.g. Fev beating Cas) and that, 3) given the dispersal of the draw, more teams from outside the 'big four' will get to a big game, such as a quarter or semi final. Meaning that reaching a semi is a bigger occasion, that more fans will go and watch such games, and that RL games from around the country are more likely to get reported. If, for instance, Nottingham Outlaws are playing Warrington, you might go and watch that game, where you almost certainly wouldn't for a regular outlaws game.

That said, I think much better marketing needs to be done, and prices need to be adjusted to attract neutrals to the cup. 'Big Games' should be exhibitions (as indeed, Leeds v Wigan was), and we should be encouraging fans to go and watch irrespective of whether their team is playing or not. At £20 a head, that isn't going to happen. £10 adults, £5 concessions and £1 U-16s will get people into the games.

N.B. I'd add that if those measures were succesful in raising attendances, I'd keep price reductions and move to bigger grounds. Starting off at the level of the Galpharm, DW Stadium, Valley Parade etc., we should be aiming to move up to filling grounds the size of Elland Road, Bramall Lane, Anfield for semis like Hull FC v Wigan, or Warrington v St Helens.

Hey I go every year and sadly (I wish it wasn't like this honest) there are plenty of empty seats and they are NOT Club Wembley seats either which I believe are 10K by the way.
I think the Challenge Cup shows up how many fans get freebies, corporate sponsored and cheap tickets for SL games as they are full paying matches and look at the crowds!!!
But I am sure plenty on here will leap to defend the RFL and its policy of 'inflating' crowds to look good (by counting ALL tickets issued wether they attend the match or not) its an old chestnut this and like Marmite you like it or you don't.

No we weren't.