Lovegrove's stats last season were very impreesive and he won the Players Player of the Year award.
Still a baby in terms of his age and the position he plays.
How you can call him poor quality having just resigned Ewan 'Tackle Buster' Dowes is laughable.

Like I said before Lovegrove was a promising young kid better than what we had and scored 5 tries in only 9 games, 2 in the game that could have been the deciding game for us to stay in SL or be relegated, so he is justified and he has been improving ever since and last season was a standout and still only 24.
Fisher was already here with halifax and he was fantastic in NL1 and a catalyst to us getting promotion and is still our best hooker with Hodgson up and coming. Again a justified signing in our quest for promotion to SL and a good role model for Hodgson.
Green is like I said better than what is available and if he is anywhere near as good as dobson he will be a great aquisition regardless of nationality, time will tell as it did with I'Anson.



You compared them first on similar amount of tackles but because Lovegrove had missed lots more you made out he must be an inferior player without knowing anything else about him, thats why I came back with the comparison on metres, so he contributes as much if not more in other ares i.e. loads more metres. So not the poor player you were making out by comparison.



Yes I'd rather do that than take on 3 x 16/17 stone blokes wanting to knock my head off and still make nearly 7.5 metres a carry.
Prop is a very tough position and his contribution is more than a lot of experienced props in sl and valuable to our team.



Then compare him to the props in sl, and I'll think you'll find he is far from the poor player you are making him out to be at 24 years old.

If none of a batch make it, that is a failure of that group. There will be failures from time to time, but we should typically producing 1 or 2 SL quality players each year. I'll judge our system over 4-5 years. If we get one freakishly good batch, that isn't a final victory either. It has to be on going.


It is what I believe. I'm biassed, but I don't believe I am being biassed on this. Lyne should be ready for regular SL next year or the year after that.


He was on Cas's books, but that isn't relevant to the rules. By mentioning this I suspect you are trying to raise the bar to score points (perish the thought

). What, we're meant to find RL virgins?


How many of those would be in your best 17? 4 I reckon, and you're including players who made their debuts around the turn of the century. Actually more like 5 for now, but you'll be making another signing or two before 2011 I assume. And Whiting will count as trained by Hull, as the rules were brought in on a sliding rule so for a player like him (age-wise), one year at the club under 21 will be enough. Edit - I forgot Radford, +1.

IMO it is a predictable weakness that will work itself out over time, assuming a moderately competent system at Rovers. A golden generation is a hope not an expectation btw - but I feel that we've at least bought a ticket now. Conflating number of overseas players and youth development is misleading. Our foreigners have squeezed out the likes of Mills, Walker and Cooke, not our youngsters. A new batch of youngsters squeezed them out and hopefully we retained the best (Watts, hopefully Taylor, maybe Latus). Sheriff, Bell, Cox etc probably won't all make it long-term. The odd one does, then you give the next 'generation' a go, hoping for the odd batch that can beat the cap and take you to the next level.

Decent enough player , Aaron , then again obviously not as good as your good self , how many NRL and NL 1 matches have you played ?, how many representative matches have you played ?

1, as I said before, not of any great quality.
2, as I said before, trust Morgan there isn't anybody that we would throw into sl, it's too early for Kristian Bell as mentioned by Sir Stan.
3, maybe there will be but nothing stand out at the moment who is ready for sl, Green will have more quality like it or not and be better prepared.



Don't be daft! I don't like even like Iron Maiden.




Well thats the same scenario with Green he can't get a game there because of the top quality halfbacks, so has to look elsewhere wether that be over here so what, he's not after his pension so will be out to prove himself.
So you tried I'Anson, we tried him and unfortunately he didn't make that step up and then we were struggling for stand off so we ended up with Paul Cooke on big bucks and past his best though did great for us at the time and helped us survive in sl.
And I really admire Mcguire and yes I'm sure he is better at the moment than Green but again its either Green or someone not upto it. We had Galea standing in and Murrell but neither are our answer to stand off.



NRL reject like Green or SL reject like I'Anson? Green for me everytime. Bell is gonna be good so can see him taking over in a couple of years and by that time Galea, Vella, Clinton, Mason, Fisher will probably have made way for the likes of Watts, Taylor, Beaumont, Cox, Hodgson with others coming through.




No but you're expecting us to sign british players up even when our coaches know they won't cut it just to say we have x many brits instead of aussies etc. who are clearly better quality. We are developing our own and time will tell if they are good enough as above.



Well of course they're not but with the exception of the odd few not all of our top 60 are anywhere near the top aussies/nz's




True they would but aussie clubs are not falling over themselves to offer them contracts because probably for less money they have a ready made equivalent or better and so much strength in depth they don't need a westwood, joel tomkins, goulding, atkins, robinson, brown, griffin.




Haha yes I'm laughing at him already! 10% make that 1%




Sorry but what would you rather watch at Leeds? All british young lads say 10th in sl? Yer right! All for the good of the game eh!




Really, could have sworn, oh wait a minute:-
Representative
Years Team Pld T G FG P
2005–2007 New Zealand 8 5 0 0 20




We have done but again it takes times for them to come through and the few that have made 1st team appearences have not been revelations, do you need me to quote previous season stats were we have beaten established sl clubs since 2007 or would that spoil it for you? Don't forget 2007 would have just been a non starter as we were not at sl level the season before and obviously 2008/9 we were still finding our feet and getting together squads of players that hull fc would have had the monopoly on of all the better local players.
For us to do well this year is testament to the coaching and scouting work put in the 3 years prior. Now we are starting to see more progress than ever when all the rest of sl have had years to establish their scouting networks.




Like I said I would rather watch a competitive side than a side down at the bottom, what about you? Some of those players we have now are grand final winners in aus so are good for the younger players coming through and will learn quicker from them.



Like i said above established sl clubs have established academys, good for them and that is what we are aiming for sooner rather than later. Hudds have done really well i'm not denying that but again they are well established they were making a challenge cup final in 2006 beating Leeds in the semi when we were getting thrashed by saints 50 nil in the other semi final while still in NL1. So again time will tell.

Not sure about the new boys, Bubble abd Bailey, but.
Luke Dorn seemed to do OK.....90 games for Broncos and Quins 67 tries....not a bad strike rate
David Howell is a good centre...very good and would step into most SL teams no problem
Chad Randal has flattered to deceive but was mentioned in early dispatches in 2009 as a quality player by many on the VT
Karl Temata...I have seen a few hard working forwards and KT is up there with the best of them. Asked to play out of position for nearly a season and a half, he got on with the job and was always in the top 3 performers in the team when I saw them.

So...pretty good actually, thanks for asking

Some reasonable points, apart from your view that there are no more than 3 decent English HBs in the competition, but this is just a bit silly IMO: Quote ="Kingston Rovers"NRL reject like Green or SL reject like I'Anson? Green for me everytime. Bell is gonna be good so can see him taking over in a couple of years and by that time Galea, Vella, Clinton, Mason, Fisher will probably have made way for the likes of Watts, Taylor, Beaumont, Cox, Hodgson with others coming through.'" Essentially these are throwaway claims that any team club could make. I agree that Watts of Castleford looks the real deal, but as far as the others are concerned, [uany[/u team in the competition could simply list the promoted academy players they have to include in their squad to make up the homegrown quota and claim they will be the successors to their marquee overseas players. Until that actually happens, it's nonsense - writing a list of junior players that you [uhave[/u to have in your squad means nothing. Also, Webster was a winger for NZ I think, hence the headline here "Webster wings in" www.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague ... bster.html "[uNew Zealand Test winger[/u Jake Webster is joining the exodus of stars from Australia's National Rugby League to Super League for next season. The 23-year-old has secured a release from the Gold Coast Titans and will play his last game for them against his former club Melbourne Storm at Olympic Park on Sunday. [uThe Titans did not reveal where Webster is headed but admitted he had received a "huge offer" from an English club[/u"

Some reasonable points, apart from your view that there are no more than 3 decent English HBs in the competition, but this is just a bit silly IMO: Quote ="Kingston Rovers"NRL reject like Green or SL reject like I'Anson? Green for me everytime. Bell is gonna be good so can see him taking over in a couple of years and by that time Galea, Vella, Clinton, Mason, Fisher will probably have made way for the likes of Watts, Taylor, Beaumont, Cox, Hodgson with others coming through.'" Essentially these are throwaway claims that any team club could make. I agree that Watts of Castleford looks the real deal, but as far as the others are concerned, [uany[/u team in the competition could simply list the promoted academy players they have to include in their squad to make up the homegrown quota and claim they will be the successors to their marquee overseas players. Until that actually happens, it's nonsense - writing a list of junior players that you [uhave[/u to have in your squad means nothing. Also, Webster was a winger for NZ I think, hence the headline here "Webster wings in" www.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague ... bster.html "[uNew Zealand Test winger[/u Jake Webster is joining the exodus of stars from Australia's National Rugby League to Super League for next season. The 23-year-old has secured a release from the Gold Coast Titans and will play his last game for them against his former club Melbourne Storm at Olympic Park on Sunday. [uThe Titans did not reveal where Webster is headed but admitted he had received a "huge offer" from an English club[/u"

Its the same when clubs trumpet signing ten 16-year olds as though this means something. They know darn well that the chances of more than 1 or 2 even making first grade are slim, let alone being stars. The reality is some of those kids are just bodies to make up the numbers in Academy sides.

How anyone can defend 10 overseas players in a squad is beyond me. I wouldn't even defend Leeds having 6 overseas players. Way too many, and of those only three were star players in Webb, Buderus and Lauti'iti. You'd struggle to get many Aussies who could even recall the likes of Delaney, Cross and Leuluai.

Green isnt better than what is available, in fact i would be suprised if you had actually ever seen him play and were relying on anything but your one-eyed club bias to back up that statement.

These players being better than the players you have brought through whilst you have admittedly neglected your youth development system isnt justification for you signing them to the detriment of young british players.

He is inferior in defense, which was what he was being compared on. he doesnt miss a few more tackles, he misses lots more tackles.

whether you want to do it or not isnt relevant, it is whether the 80minutes O'loughlin puts in expends more or less energy than the 50 mins Lovegrove puts in.

i have, and on a range of point he isnt a top class player, he is a plodder who makes yards, makes tackles, misses tackles and does very little else

You've seen a lot of Green yourself then? Green has been signed to replace a 'mature' player like Cooke. I'anson didn't quite make and has been replaced by Bell.

If there are better mature british players than Green available, what do you think Hull KR's motivation is in ignoring them?

I'm actually torn between thinking Hull KR should bend with the wind and thinking stuff it. But the the former is giving in to idiocy IMO.



I recall you wishing Cas well at our expense, because they brought through more kids. With Shenton and now Westerman leaving it seems that their model had a flaw. Virtue for virtue's sake is rarely rewarded.

There are a few of great quality, Mcguire, Pryce, Eastmond, Tomkins, Myler, Burrow, Brough, Long are all quality players, Horne, Robinson, Brown, Smith, Briers are all good players. theres 13 for you right there.
Theres Wood, Southernwood, McNally, all 20/21 ready to step into first grade if they are ever going to. All have moved clubs since HKA have been in SL, there is no excuse for not signing them other than lack of forward planning. Green is 24, he should be embarrassed if he isnt better prepared than a 20 year old. The fact is you will never prepare the 20 year old because you wont sign him, instead you go for a 24 year old NRL reject.


And, if he isnt good enough for the NRL he isnt good enough, the fact he is 24 and proved this is a negative, not a positive.

or any of the many british halfbacks who are 'up to it' and remember, at this stage, it is only 'hopefully' that Green is up to it, he has yet to prove he is. So what you are really saying it is either a young British half back who wants to prove themselves and hopefully they are up to it, or its a 24 year old NRL reject who wants to prove themselves and hopefully they are up to it.

exactly, without seeing him play, for some reason 'everytime' you will choose a 24 year old Australian who has proved he isnt NRL quality rather than a 23 year old a year further behind in fulfilling his potential, who hasnt proved he is SL quality.

well we will believe when we see it. It was on this thread Hull KA fans were telling us they were bringing through the likes of Mariano, who at 23 apparently wasnt ready to go into SL without a pack full of Australians but was a quality youngster developed by HKA.

the British players clearly are up to it. We know this because the play SL, often for teams better than your mid-table outfit.

The Aussies arent always of better quality, again we know this because the british players play for SL sides, often better than your mid-table outfit.


And? Blake Green, Rhys Lovegrove and Ben Fisher probably arent in the top 300 Antipodean players, so the fact that not all our best players are as good as the top Antipodean players is irrelevant.


your right, they have no need to bring over all our players because they put the effort into youth development and earn the rewards. They dont just ignore it and rely on someone thousands of miles away to train people up for them.


Well, clearly you know more than that ridiculous Tim Sheens bloke, I mean he only wins NRL titles, four nations titles and manages Australia, the fool.


If everybody in the league went in to the season with all british lads and leeds finished 10th, then that is where we deserved to finish. You wouldnt be going over and above your duty by only bringing in 8 overseas players, or 7 overseas players. In fact you would have the same as pretty much everyone else.

What you wouldnt be able to do is seek an advantage by employing more overseas players than everyone else. Is that what you are actually wanting and defending?


indeed, played on the wing outside a certain Mr Toopi for most of those games.

So it has been poor, and you want to seek an advantage over those who have invested in youth development and given the players a shot by employing more overseas players, remembering that you believe there are no young british halfbacks out there who are of the quality of Blake Green, and so anyone who does give a young british half-back a shot would be doing it to their detriment relative to Hull Kingston Australia.

you can do, it would be irrelevant though thats your problem to deal with, you cant ask for dispensation on the basis there is a bigger better club on your doorstep.
you have one of the strongest amatuer bases in the country on your doorstep. It doesnt take you three years to get a scout down to Skirlaugh


someone has to watch a side down at the bottom. Why should Hull Kingston Australia fans get to watch a 'competitive side' purely because they have employed more overseas players than everyone else?

of course i want my team to be successful, but i want them to do it by bringing through young british players and giving them the opportunity. I want to see them adding to the gae. Some of them are, and as i have said, i have no argument with you bringing some of them in. Its the fact you need to rely on 10 which is the problem.

and when they did that in 2006, the did it with a mostly british squad, and they did in a similar time frame to where Hull Kingston Australia are now. Dont tell us cant be done, Hudds are proving you wrong every step of the way.

I dont need to see him to know a 24 year old NRL reject wont be in the best interests of the league long term.

£££££££££££, you can also replace a mature player with a developing player, in fact, ideally thats who it would be.

because it would highlight Hull Kingston Australias flaws?

people move on, its a fact of life. But because of the good work done by Cas they have the likes of Joe Arundel and Massey to step up.

£££££££££££? Signing a British player of similar quality, were one available, would surely be cheaper than flying somebody around the World.

Ideally you replace a mature player with a develop[ied[/i player. A subtle but important difference if you don't want your team to be rubbish.

How would signing British players expose our supposed flaws?

People move on, but the rate at which they move on is a problem for Cas. They have a great youth system, but they are not extracting full value from it. At least they got some cash for Westerman. If Arundel and Massey do step up, their fans have to assume that they to will go sometime soon afterwards. A good youth system needs a strong club, competitive club (see Leeds, Wigan and Saints) to complement it. You put all your eggs in the youth policy basket and when they hatch they feck off to a more ambitious nest.

you would think so. But a Mature British player is likely to have a full-time contract, if they are in first team it would be a minimum of 60/70k, A player like Green firstly doesnt have a contract in Aus and isnt likely to get one so is in a fairly weak bargaining position. Also players of his quality are 10 a penny in Aus, again putting him in a pretty weak bargaining position.

you need to give developing players game time so they become developed. Ideally a 19/20/21 year old with maybe 30/40 games behind them would be replacing your mature players.

because you havent proved great at it.

im not sure 2 players moving on is a terrible attrition rate. Also they got a good 6 years out of Shenton. maybe, maybe not. But if they get the 6 years they got from Shenton or the 150k they got from Westerman it will be worth it. a good youth system is needed to create a good club. You cant get one without the other. to mix your metaphor, you are over-egging the pudding a bit there. Shenton will be 25 next year, this is his 7th season as a first team player, Cas have got good mileage from him, Westerman was sold for a fair whack. This is hardly indicative of Cas losing all their best players. They still have Owen and Huby, they have big big raps for Milner, along with Arundel and Massey, aswell as Walker who has started to get games. The Westerman money can be re-invested in the club, maybe bringing in more players like Ferris and Emmitt, and in a couple of years they will look strong.

Leeds have lost a youth product in Diskin, they lost Tansey, Mathers, Calderwood and Walker who were all either a similar age or younger than Shenton when he moved. Players some times move, thats life, a stronger youth development system helps you cope with that.

And the award for the longest bullsh*t post of the year goes to .......................





Smokey TA

Well done , you get a free 2010 Season ticket to the Bramley Buffaloes as prize

Thanks,

are the rumours true that it was a season ticket to Leigh but the winners kept turning it down?

good contribution aswell starry, one of your best.

I've seen worse.

And whats surprising it wasn't one of mine

You get the prize for the MOST number of bullsh*t posts

Your prize is a Leigh SL shirt from 2005

You know the final scene from Indiana Jones , Raiders of the lost Ark , there is a wharehouse like that in leigh , full of merchandise from 2005

What size are you , I'm guessing XXXXL , we have plenty of those

Judging by the size of the women around your way I'm amazed you have any left in that size.



Unless they find that size a bit tight

All clubs are currently complying to the overseas rules in Super League. Continuing to do so should see more homegrown talent given a chance which is a great thing, but alongside these rules, clubs need to remain competitive and look to challenge for honours rather than ensuring they tick certain boxes, but go backwards on the pitch.

The idea behind removing relegation was to give clubs some breathing space and take the pressure off, but does awarding a very valuable licence 'point' to averaging a top 8 finish simply put that pressure back on, or is it key to the game continuing to be a competitive sport and an attractive spectacle rather than just a list of criteria?

Developing players is not about fast-tracking a load of lads from the academy into first team action and seeing them get the confidence smashed out of them by seasoned pro's. It's as much about knowing when [inot[/i to play them. Rushing young players through does nothing for the game. It lowers the quality which in turn lowers the support thus lowering the number of kids wanting to get into it.

Only time will tell if the time, money and effort Hull KR have invested in their youth setup will bear fruit, but one thing is for certain; that investment wouldn't be possible without a bit of success on the pitch and despite what some people think, there aren't enough English players as good as Lovegrove, Fisher and Green to go round yet. Hopefully there will be soon.

yes, there is.

No, there isn't. If they were English they'd have made the train on squad this year. All three have a had a good season.

Not a dig at Hull FC at all, but when you have to pay a fee (plus no doubt a sizeable wage) for a player like Westerman, it demonstrates that the good English SL-standard players are at a premium.

Until the rules start to kick in and show some definite results, there is still a lot better value for money in overseas players. I'm not denying Hull KR have some catching up to do, but alongside getting the youth set-up up and running, they are signing players who'll establish a minimum quality that a homegrown player has to be, alongside giving the fans value for money by putting out a competitive team.

You wont win anything without Aussies in your side.

its not such a brash move,finacially as you may think. The advantage of paying a fee for a player is that there's no competetion for his signature, unless when their contract expires. Because of this, youprobably get the player at a better rate than you would at the end of their current deal.

I never said it was brash, just that it demonstrates that if you want good English talent, you might now have to stump up a transfer fee. In any case if what you're saying is correct, surely we'd see it happening a lot more often.

Perhaps Hull paid a fee because they know just how hot the competition would be for his signature when his contract is up? Again demonstrating how little there is available.

All that said, I agree with Smokey that clubs taking responsibility for developing players will cure this, but in the mean time they still need to get the best value for money they can to keep the game at a decent standard.