whoever you want, it doesnt really make a difference.


exactly, which is why it is a little silly to compare him to O'loughlin or Le'strange on metres made isnt it.

So you dont include kicking and assists etc because he is a prop forward and his job isnt to do those things, but you can compare metres made to 6 hookers and 2 loose forwards even though it isnt there job to only make hitups? you think Hookers arent expending energy getting to the PTB? you think O'loughlin isnt expending energy running across the line? getting into the line and passing on? you think the only part of the game which expends energy is taking hit ups?


im not making that rule, common sense is. It seems you agree, hence you not wanting to compare Lovegrove (a Prop) to O'loughlin (a loose) on Kicks, assists etc. because it isnt his main priority to do so. It also means you cant compare Lovegrove to O'loughlin on Metres Made.

Again that's 3 players out of 14 SL teams, I'll say it slowly this time, the quality of these players is few and far between and you won't get that sort of exceptional quality out of all halves you try, thats why we don't have one thats good enough at the moment, same as the other 10 SL clubs!



Chas I'Anson is from Hull if you didn't know, he went to Leeds before we got into SL and you didn't give him a go, so he came to us and we gave him a chance, he was'nt good enough unfortunately and again Green has played 43 first grade in a competition full of talent so hopefully he'll go ok here, again I'll trust my coach to make the decisions for my club thanks.



Because most of them are 16 and 17 year olds who are still wet behind the ears and unless they are exceptionally talented they will get the stuffing knocked out of them and potentially lose them from the game for good, it's a slow process and only a handful will make the step up. Some have come through but again not deemed good enough for SL for now and only had a few games between them barring Kris Welham and the other brits we signed from elsewhere, Hodgson and Watts.



Like Liam Watts, Josh Hodgson, Mike Ratu, Craig Hall, or Scott Wheeldon!




Round and round and round, we're taking a risk as you put it with Green because even if he dosn't make it in the nrl he can make it here, because generally an average aussie is better than a good brit barring the odd exception. Ellery Hanley was probably the best player in the world of his time, other than that name another brit in the last 30 years?
Really? How many british players make it to the nrl? not many, a chosen few, 3 at the moment iirc and we'll be lucky if there are half a dozen more in the next 10 years and it won't be Rovers fault because there was a distinct lack of brits in the nrl before we came into SL, not one player for a year or two before Ellis iirc?
It's because they have strength in depth, so while were waiting for the quota to be reduced and our ooc players leave expect us and others to try and be as competitive as we can be against the so called big four.



It's not sod the game, it's be as competitive as possible and we are competitive as you found out this year (twice) saints last year (twice). I'd rather see a competitive game than us getting thrashed every week with our british 16/17 year olds, they'll come through in time but the time is not now! Two of our lads were playing for Yorkshire the other week as Roofs mentioned, so they are coming through.



We havn't had 15 years in SL with sky backing, our money is being spent on ground improvements and facilities and it needs it, we don't get crowds of 15k, we have limited resources, we have made great strides since promotion but we can't think of spending all our income on youth development because it's good for the game, it dosn't work like that. Be competitive, raise crowds and sponsorship and in time we will get there.



What you expect and what you get are two different things read and digest all of the above. The rfl will decide what is acceptable not you, not me, but I'm quite happy with our progress of the last 4 years and there will be more in the next 4 years including decent young british players coming through.

You made a judgement on Lovegrove and said he was crap, barring the top 3 props IMHO, graham peacock and morley, I'd have Lovegrove everyday of the week thanks. You don't see him play every week so you shouldn't make that call. He often has mom displays but because the sponsor picks Dobson for his all round game every other week dosn't mean to say he hasn't made a hell of a difference to the outcome of a game.




I'll say it again, I didn't make the first comparison with O'Loughlin and L'estrange, you did, so I countered with a valid argument if you were to compare them. And yes totally insane, remember not to do it next time eh.



Well again you started to compare them I just followed suit, but i think averaging 30 tackles a game and making over 110m a game will be more energy sapping than picking up and passing a ball or running along the line, just my opinion.




Exactly! I wouldn't compare a prop to a loose forward, until you do that is.

seriously....
has anyone got a list of the SL clubs and how many overseas passport holding players they have on their books. This wil include any who don't qualify as overseas due to them being here for years........
Quins RL have:
Luke Dorn 2004 and then again in 2009 (went to Salford to win trophies

and then back via Castleford)
Karl Temata 2005
Chad Randal 2006
David Howell 2008
Nick Kouparitsas 2011
Chris Bailey 2011

Now, I make that 6 so far comfirmed as Quins RL players next season and I thought that the limit was 5 overseas trained/quota players....where's the loop hole?

and what a quality 6 they are at Quins! lol

But have you not yet realised that a successful SL franchise is not just about who has the most English yoof (as you spell it

), but who can be a successul team on the pitch and off it? Sure, we could field 17 young, Hull-born players every match, but with a lack of experience we would be a very poor team like Quins. Therefore our crowds would be lower and we'd take less fans to away fans, thus be contributing less to other clubs and SL in general. Is that good for the British game?


Twelve teams of purely English players, one team of purely French players, and one team of purely Welsh lads would (from what I can gather) be your ideal Super League, but IMO if that was brought in over night the quality of SL matches and the competition would be a lot lower then it is now. For example, Michael Dobson is (on paper) the best scrum-half in Super League right now. You could search all over the UK and you will not find a better English scrum-half then him. To therefore replace him with an English lad would reduce the quality of Hull KR as a team (this si just one example).
Basically Gutterfax, Quins have been forced to field loads of English lads (many before they were ready, judging by the fact you're a very poor team

) because you have no revenue through most traditional ways (crowds, merchandise etc), and those RFL back-handers probably only cover your bills.


Hull KR bring more to SL then Quins do, and always will, so...

no, another ridiculous argument. There arent only three british halfbacks in SL, there arent only 3 young british half backs in SL. You cant argue that unless you get a top top quality prospect like Tomkins, Eastmond or Myler then there arent players of sufficient quality for Hull Kingston Australia. These 3 players are on a different level to Green, there are young british players out there with the potential to be much much better than Green. Its Short-termist self-centred one-eyed club attitudes like this that stop them getting that opportunity.

because its a self-fulfilling argument that means no criticism, however valid, could be levelled at any club.

but your key word is hopefully, hopefully this NRL reject proven not good enough for the NRL will 'go ok'. Yet there are plenty of younger british players with more potential who could just as easily 'go ok'
16 and 17 year olds would have only been signed this summer, Hull Kingston Australia fans have been telling us they have been investing in the academy for a few years, where is the evidence?

yes, like those. See its not impossible, your club is simply failing by not doing more of it.


thats absolute balls, the best probably 50 or 60 british players would make it in the NRL, and certainly to the level Green has.
When, Tansey, Mathers, Mason, Ellis, Morley, Burgess, Flanagan can make first grade in the NRL dont tell me we cant produce players better than Blake Green. When absolute dross like Ryan Tandy, Aaron Heremia can come over here, fail miserably and go back and get back to NRL first grade dont tell me this league isnt full of players better than Blake Green. It makes you look ridiculous

you also dont need to wait for the quota to be reduced, you dont need to use as many overseas players as you possibly can


But that isnt the other option. You could lose two or three overseas players and not be on the bottom of the table. Swapping Green, Fisher and Webster for McNally, Diskin and promoting Ratu and that isnt going to make a huge difference to the quality of your side.


then you lose out on the first team. If you want prioritise other things over youth development fine, but there is a payoff in that the quality of side you put out isnt as good as if you were to invest more in youth development. If we are to produce more quality players then that competition has to be there, its isnt acceptable to simply put youth development to one side, bring in loads of over-seas ringers and let everyone else do the work.
the RFL did decide what was acceptable, and had you and Stanley not challenged it then you would have half the imports you have now.

as i said, you can legislate for people's opinions. But that doesnt mean you can argue all these players Hull KR are bringing over are needed because the quality of British isnt there, when you are bringing over players like Lovegrove, Fisher, Green,

no, we compared them on tackle counts and missed, something which every player does. You then decided to compare them on metres made because it something those players dont really focus on.

how about making 40 tackles again, 60 metres and running picking up the ball and passing it 70 times, and running across the line and passing it 30 times.


of course we can compare them, on something they both do, i.e defend. In offence the have different jobs, in defence, not really.

Despite me clearly using the words "currently available", you produced a list of youngsters who are all contracted into 2011 and beyond:

McNally 2011
Briggs 2011
Allan - not sure, so I will give you that one, but if he's ready for SL, why did Leeds let him go?
Wood 2012
Southernwood 2013.

Rovers have a very good prospect at Stand Off in Kristian Bell, but at 17, he will be 2 years off being ready, hence the signing of Green on a 2 year deal.

With respect, Rovers claimed to have good prospects in Kirk Netherton, Gomersall, I'Anson, Spaven, Esders, Menzies, Haynes, Mariano etc, and as it stands, unless someone decent emerges to contend on a regular basis for one of your 7 non-overseas spots, you could be going into your 6th SL season in 2012 with only Kris Welham brought through as genuinely homegrown. Whatever the extremes of the argument here on both sides, surely you'd admit that would be disappointing.

Netherton has done okay - going on to play with Cas and Widnes. Spaven and I'anson are both at Widnes next year iirc. Esders and Mariano did/will go on to be play a role on the fringes a couple of the weaker SL squads. Apart from Netherton and maybe I'anson they were never considered even a silver generation - we knew we were really starting from scratch with 15 year olds, who are now just getting into their late teens.

To Welham, you can now add Albert Goldthorpe rookie of the year, 20-year old Liam Watts, who has just completed his third season at Rovers and so counts as home grown by the strictest RFL definition. In the same period Hull's long-established system has brought through Danny Houghton, Tom Briscoe (fair play) and blooded Reece Lynn. Tommy Lee and Craig Hall have thus far failed to live up their billing and were released.
We've now got some of the youngsters who were picked up in competition with SL clubs, rather than the 'left-overs' we got previously, coming to RL maturity. There was a lag phase, I expected that, so I'm not disappointed. I think your extrapolation into the future is based on a false premise - but if I'm wrong I will be disappointed.

meh leave them to it.
All SL winning sides over the years have a mix of quality youth, a few decent overseas players and good British players filling out the squads. In fact, you cant win SL without it becuase you cant balance the cap well enough.
Plenty of overseas players will get you a 'decent' side, of course, theyre ready made but unless you have 4 or 5 real quality homegrown players, it just isnt going to do it for you.

Absolutely. Rovers have to start producing/recruiting better young players for themselves, purely from self-interest. If some of them go on play for England then that is nice. But we're not a feeder organisation.

Our choice of senior squad members should perhaps be taken as a reflection on what went on in our absence from SL. SL clubs didn't produce enough spare SL-quality players for us to use in the short-term, so we looked to the NRL where suply seems to outstrip demand.
I'm not necessarily saying SL clubs did a bad job in absolute terms - they're just unfortunate that the only comparator is so strong.

Wigan have been in SL a lot longer and last year needed 9 overseas players to win the league. I still don;t get what people are moaning about? Aside from maybe 2 or 3 the rest of our overseas players are decent quality and add quality to the inexperienced HKR as a SL club and are making us competitive. I thought we wanted high intensity games every week?

theres no way Wigan used 9.
Leuleui has been here since 18 I think which is unfortunate but those are the rules, Hansen is NOT an overseas player, period. Just because he chooses to represent Samoa, the same way that Benji Marshall chooses to represent NZ or any others that choose to represent other nations, doesnt make him an overseas player.

I thought we were talking about players that were born overseas and had not nominated to play for England? in which case Wigan had 9 last year.

Hansen was born in NZ, has been called up for a NZ squad and has played in 2008 and 2009 for Samoa. If we are simply going on players that are inelligible for England/home nations then Rovers don't look so bad!

When you read the posts do you actually take it all in? I said 3 excellent players in 14 clubs, Green will be of less quality than those 3 but better then what is available elsewhere in the british game.



So I'Anson got his chance at Leeds then yes?



It is 'hopefully' with anyone who comes across here regardless of talent, Crossman came to us with a good rep but didn't deliver, Trent Barrett while good in patches did not perform as well as he could and nor did Eastwood from what I've heard.



We don't sign players for the sake of it, if our coach thinks there decent then we'll sign them not just to make up the numbers.




50 or 60??? Now who looks ridiculous? Can you name them for me so I can get Morgan to sign some up so you're happy! How many halfbacks? 3? Yer thats why we're so competitive in the international game, and havn't been for years, now that's balls!



We don't want to drop any places we want to be up there and while the rules allow we'll do what we need to do to maintain our place in the top 8 thanks. We need play off rugby to bring fans and sponsors in. We'll get there in the end don't worry about it.
Webster is a nz international, with respect to Ratu he has not reached that level yet.



We havn't put youth development to one side, we competed against the best sides at academy level this year beating wigan and saints both twice so its improving every year so we are putting in a lot of work, we'll see that when the quota drops. 2 of our under 18's played for Yorkshire a few weeks ago, I find myself repeating things again.
Over seas ringers? I thought you said our aussies etc were not good enough??? Make your mind up!
Why the hell would we challenge the rfl? We are happy seeing a competitive team on the pitch and want our youth to come through in time, there's nothing like seeing one of your own making it into the big time but its just not that easy, if it was we'd all have nothing but brits.

Going on to play for England isnt the main point of the argument. Improving our league and helping it become sustainable is the reason youth development is so important.

Our League doesnt improve in any possible relative measure by relying on players like Blake Green. It simply highlights how we we are relatively getting worse.



firstly, SL did do a bad job in bringing through SL quality players in the first years of SL.

However there are enough players for Hull KA to put out a competitive squad without 10 overseas players. We know this for a fact, they did it last year.

So why keep having a go at the club then ffs?

ok, lets try this again,
1 there are many more than 3 british half backs in SL
2 there are many more than 3 british half backs in SL who are better than Blake Green
3 there are young british half backs on the fringes of SL who have more potential than a 24 year old NRL reject like Blake Green.

this sort of weird argument change reminds of a guy named Bill

hmmmm

anyway, No, I'Anson didnt, because Leeds had already brought through a much better stand off than him in Danny Mcguire, who is also much much much better than dross like Blake Green.

indeed it is, thats why we should be taking the risk with young british players with the potential to be top quality rather than 24 year old NRL rejects. We wont catch up to the NRL by employing players who arent good enough for the NRL to the detriment of players who may be.


nobody has argued anything different.
you do realise, not everyone in the NRL is good enough to play for Australia dont you?
you also must understand that our best 60 regulars being better than their worst 60 regulars wouldnt mean we are better than them?

I have no doubt that 20 or so of the players over there right now would be NRL regulars. The likes of Morley has already proved he is, Peacock, Mcguire, Eastmond, Sinfield, Pryce would all be playing first grade rugby, thats 25 right off the top of my head.

a certain NRL coach said they want about 10% of SL playing in the NRL, his name Tim Sheens, but I guess he looks ridiculous aswell.

Aaaahh, your one-eyed short-termist club-before-game shirt is showing. Quick hide it, you are trying to look reasonable.

Webster has never been an international centre.

so you have done nothing up to this year on youth development, and thats why you need to rely on overseas players. Not because they arent out there, not because other clubs havent brought them through, and not because you arent of the quality needed. But because you have done nothing on youth development and are too scared that clubs who have will end up better than you to take a risk on others products and those in the lower leagues so you rely on overseas players to the detriment of the league and to the detriment of young british players, but its ok Hull Kingston Australia will probably finish in the top 8, like they want, and sod the rest of the game and all the other stakeholders.

because otherwise you would have needed to have 5/6 players by now, not the 10 you apparently need to be competitive.

Why in time? Why not now? why cant you be competitive without so many NRL players? Huddersfield are, hudds have signed plenty from their academy, from others academies and from the lower leagues and they have a better squad and have been more successful? You might want to pretend it was the fact they got a parachute payment but facts are, Cudjoe, Mcgilvery, and Lawrence joined them in SL. Patrick, Lunt, and Kirmond came from outside SL and they have signed Robinson and Brown from the fringes of other squads, and Mason, Griffin, Gilmour, Brough and Hodgeson from other SL clubs. They have good young players like Carlile, McNally and Wood from the academies of other clubs. If Huddersfield can do it, Hull KR can too

eerrmm, maybe because you are going into next season with 10 overseas players?

and thats a pretty pathetic total for a club in the supposed heartlands of the game.

Also Rufus, what would be the point in your 'principle' of losing Crusaders and Quins and replacing them with heartland teams like Widnes and Halifax when we dont even have enough players to play for Hull Kingston Australia? where are the new players for these clubs going to spring from?

That doesn't make sense - it's like saying there's not enough English players to play for Manchester United, obviously there is, but there's a difference between enough players and enough quality players.

Couldn't care less personally if people slate Rovers - ATEOTD we're a more successful and prosperous club then Quins or Crusaders, more young players will come through with time, and nobody with a brain could knock our achievements since our promotion four years ago. If we'd played 2007 with a team of purely English players we'd have got relegated. The club therefore has done the right thing having a large amount of overseas players for the class and experience that many bring, to support the development of our young players, e.g. would English lads like Fox and Welham have come on like they have without the skill of Aussies like Galea and Dobson? I doubt it.

So if the latest already much-hyped batch do the same, does that constitute success or failure?
How convenient - jam tomorrow, then, going into your 5th season. Reece Lyne was 13 at that point BTW, since you seem to want to bring FC into it.
I thought Watts came through Castleford's academy


I'm not sure what your point is here, other than to try and suggest both Hull teams have delivered equally on homegrown, club-trained players. In the timeframe you describe FC have brought through Houghton (debuted at 18, has played 78 SL games), Tom Briscoe (debuted at 17 has played 51 SL games), Craig Hall (debuted at 19, has played 69 SL games), Anthony Thackery (debuted at 20, has played 11 SL games and now a regular at Widnes), Tommy Lee (debuted at 17, has played 79 SL games), Mike Burnett (debuted at 19, has played 36 SL games), plus as you say, Reece Lyne who played 6 games this year at the age of 17. All this of course in addition to established Hull academy products Yeaman, Horne, G Horne, Washbrook, Radford, Wheeldon, Cooke, Hodgson, King, and, if you're going to claim Watts as a product of Rovers academy, I'll claim Whiting as FC's as well, since he debuted at 19 and has played 122 SL games.

Nice 'n' easy words to say you expected nothing so aren't disappointed, but until you get someone other than Welham pushing for a regular place in "the 7" it's all just fancy talk about some golden next generation. Of course Rovers will get a franchise, but let's not forget there was a negative comment on lack of robust evidence on the youth development side of things at KR last time round, so this is not Smokey TA (or me) being deliberately provocative, it's a documented weakness, which then makes the choice to actually increase the number of overseas players rather than at least hold them flat, all the more strange. Why you would be actively supporting the principle of Rovers seeking to ramp up the number of overseas players is a bit odd IMO. I don't agree with FC getting Berrigan off the quota personally if it were to bring in a player like Rovelli at 6 but I guess at least we wouldn't be increasing our number of overseas players.

no it isnt. Im asking you, why you want to add heartland teams like Widnes and Halifax when there isnt enough players for Hull KR to put out a competitive team? Or you saying you want Widnes and Halifax promoted and them not have a competitive team, or are you saying you want Widnes and halifax promoted and them to bring in another 30 overseas players, which considering you are dropping Quins means we would need to have fewer young british players in SL?

you have some decent crowds, a mid-table team with a shed-loads of overseas players and have done some relatively minor improvements to a very poor ground with 'plans' for major improvements, Sounds like pretty much every club which has come up to be honest. its now the 2011 season, and you dont need purely English players, just more. not getting a game doesnt help your development. yes