I think for Saints, some success or a cup run will see the fans flocking back, this is not the case for some other clubs ie. Salford, Cas, London, Huddersfield. Even Leeds on the back of 2 GF wins are dropping crowd numbers !

There does seem to be a general conensus that the old play off system was better for 2 reasons.
Favouring the teams that finished first and second, plus, not rewarding mediocrity.
Can you imagine what would happen if a team finishing 7th or 8th actually won the GF ?

That's two SL fixtures over the weekend that have had their official attendances amended upwards. An officially announced attendance of 11,200 at Langtree Park is later amended to 12,105... and 4,521 announced at Wheldon Rd is later amended to 4,751. I can only assume the discrepancies are to account for season ticket holders who didn't actually attend.


Judging by a lot of comments from Saints fans, the new stadium isn't going down well at all among the supporters. It lacks character and atmosphere. They'd return to Knowsley Rd if it was still an option.

.......this again.

It still does, Wigan ('12) and Wire ('11) both had a home game to reach the GF, no different than when it was 5 team playoffs. And even as a Leeds fan I can admit that if Tomkins played in the Playoff Semi, then Wigan qualify for the GF most probably so you end up with 1st vs 2nd.......like we did in 2009 and 2010 UNDER the 8 team playoff system.

- And do people REALLY believe that teams can win it from 7th or 8th?
- Does anybody really think that if any other team finishes 5th this year that they'll be able to do what Leeds did?
- If it's so easy the route from 5th then why didn't Wakey ('09) or Hudds ('10) win or even reach the GF?
- Why hasn't any team that has finished 6th (essentially the same route as 5th) never reached a GF?
- Do people not think that reaching 5 GF's (and winning 4) in the previous 7 years was a massive factor in Leeds then being able to do it from 5th twice and that the chances of other teams doing it without this experience is very slim?
- No coincedence that they only team to reach from 3rd (during 8 team era) is Saints (2011), a team that had reached the last FIVE GF's?
- The doomed 4th place team.....HKR ('09), Leeds ('10), Hudds ('11), Catalans ('12)......guess which is the only team to reach the final 4 of the Playoffs out of them?
- Only once has the team finishing 6th even got to within 80 mins of the GF, Wigan ('09)......but they also managed to do that under the 6 team playoff in 2007.

People can blame the format but at the end of the day the teams that should've been reaching and winning the GF from 1st the last 2 years (Wigan and Wire) simply haven't perform well enough in Playoff in the last 2 years.
Wigan - P5 W2 L3
Wire - P6 W3 L3

Of those 11 games
- vs Leeds & Saints - P7 W1 L6
- vs other teams - P4 W4 L0

Leeds and Saints when finishing 1st & 2nd in the 8 team Playoffs
- P9 W7 L2 (One being Leeds beating Saints in the '09 Final)

Simply put, Leeds and Saints just perform better in the Playoffs, it took a extremely good 2nd 40mins by Wire at Langtree Park to finally break that and Saints really should've been out of sight by half-time in that one. People can talk about Leeds being mediocre but during the Playoffs last year Wire came within 9 points of the title and in 4 games only really played good for 1 solitary half of rugby.

And regarding attendances, if the problem of 2013 being lower is being aimed at Leeds winning last years GF from 5th.......then explain the comparison year (2012) being used in this argument to illustrate it, because we went into that season under the same circumstances of Leeds winning the GF from 5th in 2011.

I would not return to Knowsley Road.

Yet even if the lower figure of 11,200 is correct that is still better than any Saints/Wakey crowd at Knowsley Road during the SL era.

I'm sorry that you are a Leeds fan and that you dont see anything "wrong" for a team to finish 5th from 14 in the regular season and be crowned champions.
Although there is no doubt that Leeds have done exceptionally well to win the comp from 5th twice on the bounce, do you think this enhances the competition, or perhaps devalues it slightly, when the Champions finished 10 points behind the league leaders.
Call me old school but it just doesn't sit comfortably when the champion team finishes a third of the way down the table.
You may argue that it is an extraordinary achievement, which it certainly is, but that doesn't mean that it detracts from the 27 weekly rounds.

I've neither used the words ''nothing wrong'' nor ''extraordinary achievement'', in think I highlighted how I thought we got a slice of luck with Tomkins being injured.

So I didn't say I don't find nothing wrong with it, I do. But what I find wrong is how poorly other teams have played in the Playoffs over the years when the title is within reach. Bradford finished 10 points behind the leaders in 2005 and lost 5 more games than the leaders (the same as Leeds in 2012) but I didn't see the same complaints as we do now back then.

As for detracting from the regular season, since 1996 (when SL begin) in football's Championship (2nd tier), the team finishing 3rd has only won the playoffs (and been promoted) 7 times in 17 years, yet this league is often referred to as being as exciting as the Premiership and doesn't suffer at all from this format........I guess it's different folks outlook on life



And how will less Playoff spots help some of the worst crowd offenders so far this year (Salford, London, Bradford), the latter 2 were given slim hope of maybe hitting the top 8, if it was down to top 5 they'd have had no chance and would probably be getting even less home fans to games. Would more Cas fans have turned out against London at the weekend? No. Would more Hudds fans be turning up if we did top 5? They haven't done well in top 8 playoffs even though its 'easier' so would a 'tougher' playoff format see fans flocking for Season Tickets?

The level of apathy from the Leeds fans for the Leeds Wakefield play off last season was incredible.
Despite a 3000 strong contingent of Wakefield fans, who were riding high on the back of 7 straight wins, the crowd at Headingley was only 8000+, there were more people there for the Boxing Day trial match !

Regarding the play offs, the teames finishing 7/8th rarely win their game and it is something of a filler.
We should revert to top 5 or 6, which gives the top teams slightly less chance of an automatic spot, which should prevent the type of games such as Wigan at Widnes last season, when several players were rested and also means that a team from the bottom half of the league does not qualify for the finals series.

There are many reasons for some of the poor crowds and it is the individual clubs responsibility to maximise their own support and revenues and although almost every team in the comp is capable of making the 8, the issues with the make up of play offs do reduce the value of the competition and that cant be right.

Top 4 play-offs...(gotta stop Leeds somehow)

Definitely time for two pro leagues of ten then

That isn't the point of this thread though. The comparison has been with the same fixtures last season. While there are bound to be mitigating factors in all the rounds - the weather, the time of year, what have you - Saints' crowds are consistently down this season and we aren't alone (but we probably have witnessed the biggest fall in numbers). What kind of crowd the game would have attracted at KR was irrelevant. All the figures are up on our leaving gate from KR.

I don't think so. I'm starting to think that last season was a blip, as although our gates are still above those from our final season at KR, they are pretty much the same number down on last season's gates. Some of the problem is the stadium IMO. A lot of our 'new' supporters, according to the head honcho anyway, were actually family members of those already attending, mostly female partners and their children. Unfortunately, three quarters of the stadium does not offer much in the way of protection from the elements. In fact, quite often the experience has been that the temperature is lower and the wind stronger IN the stadium than around its perimiter, due to a kind of funnel effect created by the lack of backs to three of the stands. If the stadium experience is actually colder and less protected than at KR, which it is, then even with such luxuries as covered toilets families will not be easily attracted back. (Although on some matchdays to get to the covered toilets involved paddling through puddles of rain)

So far as the overall drop in numbers is concerned, why it has happened is a mystery.

But there's the paradox. You're right, in that no, I can't really see a team winning it from 7th or 8th. Nor, in my view, do fans of the clubs challenging for those places. Which is why they're not flocking to watch their teams trying to scrape that 8th place. They don't think it means anything other than one, maybe two, more games. The only teams that could ever win from fifth are the "big" clubs who've had a poor run somewhere. No smaller club, scraping a lower place, will ever win it.

if 5th is the highest it has ever been won from then cut to the chase, have a top 5 GF play-off, then to keep interest for those 6-10 have a plate series with a final at O/T before the GF and the winners get a shield and a bit of cash.....at least those 6-10 will be closer in competitive level than the teams 6-8 are to the top 5

Agreed, or just cut back to top 5 or 6, which creates a more intense end of season comp which, if marketed and promoted well, should ensure decent crowds for all of the play off series.
It's nice for the "minnows" to have a taste of play off footy but, they are just moments in the sun.

Would it not be possible to fill in the gaps behind the stands, or add corner seating/terracing to help with the "wind tunnel" problem ?

corners are filled with seats/terracing...the problem is the 6-8ft gap between the roof and the top of the back wall............Apparently if the gap is closed some on the saints forum say it will cause a billowing of the wind and blow the roof off. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont think the corners are full filled in, although if the roof could blow off unless there are the gaps behind all of the 4 stands, that is a major design fault.
Personally, I though the ground was excellend, but some of our group thought the opposite.

the 2 corners near the fully enclosed seating section are seated, the other 2 are more open.......it is very windy and the rain blows in....well it did good friday last year and we got soaked and the concourse area for refreshments was like a paddling pool....

You have to remember different circumstances for different clubs. Since the start of the 2009 season (the first Top 8 year) up until the Leeds/Wakey game, the amount of Cup, Playoffs & WCC games.......
- Leeds = 28 (including 5 big days out at Wembley and Old Trafford)
- Wakefield = 7
That number today after the 2012 Playoffs and 2013 WCC stands at 33-8
That is a lot of extra games to pay for, several hundred pounds if you tried attending each one. Also, and I don't mean to sound cocky, but much different attitudes for both clubs. For Leeds fans it was 1 step on the path to the GF where many tipped or expected them to get to and possibly a mindset of quite a few to save their money for the later games........Wakey fans on the other hand probably didn't think or expect to go all the way but would've been quite satisfied with just dumping Leeds out.

Well it is the point of the thread actually......trying to create a panic with the way the numbers are presented. I fully expect Saints numbers to be down this year, last year was the new stadium effect, it was always going to jump up in 2012. The figures they've gotten when compared to how many they usually got at Knowsley Road do not equal 'worrying' and that is the buzz word on this thread. So it's exactly the point, but some prefer to present it as ''drop from the 2012 game'' and say this is bad, when if adding context it's actually the 2nd best attended Saints/Wakey clash in SL.......very much NOT worrying.

So how would decreasing the playoffs to 5 teams help that? It MIGHT add to the attendance when the 'big boys' play each other, but from the ones we've had so far this season those attendances have remained ok anyway. So really I can't see this years figures having being much different had we entered the season under TOP 5 system.

Games between the likes of Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire might add on a few extra if it's TOP 5 but then look at William's club-by-club figures on Page 52, the 3 teams showing an increase are Wakey, HKR and Widnes, teams who under a TOP 5 system most likely wouldn't get close to reaching so surely you would just be seeing drops at those clubs to even the overall attendance figures out???

It wouldn't. You need a trap door too.

They dont, thats the point some people done understand.

Mr Eve does though That’s why he is doing it, those agreeing with him don’t seem to grasp it though.

Im just surprised that Nigel Wood saying good attendances are good and something we should celebrate annoyed him so much he has spent a year saving this up.

But they do , if you want to wait till the end of the season before commenting on them , then ignore the thread , " Simples "