I agree the main links are just giving a bit of an taster with snippets of info and not the full financial status, but they do link to the subsidiary and parent companies that such as Warrington have.
Drill down and you can view the actual accounts if you are so inclined which is what you should really be looking at , however even accounts can be structured in ways to hide things.

True, however I think most RL clubs accounts that I look at tend to give a decent broad picture as not many are bundled in with other operations - turnover levels tend to be just the operation of RL clubs and owned stadia so it gives a good indication and an understanding of direction of travel. At the margins you can chuck in all sorts of management charges etc that make the picture difficult to decipher but when looking at one year compared to another in the same company they are usually broadly understandable.

Comparing one club to another, especially on the Balance Sheet side is though particularly fraught with danger without knowing the full picture e.g. Headingley, excluding the East Stand, is in Leeds' accounts at a depreciated 1997 value (around £5m). This bears no relation to what the site is actually worth, either its value in use to the company or on the open market as a piece of property.

Quote ="TrentBarrett"Do you think if I email r.j.wilson@shu.ac.uk "financial expert" he will provide me with the data he used to form his sensationalist headline?'" We'll see - I've just e-mailed him. Will update people on here if he gets back to me...

Quote ="TrentBarrett"Do you think if I email r.j.wilson@shu.ac.uk "financial expert" he will provide me with the data he used to form his sensationalist headline?'" We'll see - I've just e-mailed him. Will update people on here if he gets back to me...

Its just cheapskate journalism knowing they can get away with it without any repercussions. If they tried that with a much larger influential governing sport body they would have been taken to task.
However there is concern that only 3 clubs have decent asset and book values in Leeds, Warrington and St Helens.

MjM, you're right, but obviously have some financial nouse to be able to work this out; the layman isn't. And the BBC have taken the BS approach (that's Balance Sheet, or Bull Sh*t, take your pick), which is as you say dangerous. £68m of debt - so what if you have £100m of assets?!

I'm seething over this...

I think this blog post sums it up perfectly. thersw.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/ ... y-in-hell/

I think this blog post sums it up perfectly. thersw.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/ ... y-in-hell/

Probably as embarrassed as KPMG were on their assessments at the last round of licensing.

I wouldn't worry. If there are many more like me they won't understand a word of what they have just read and so won't be able to draw any conclusions at all - other than they are totally ignorant when it comes to corporate finances!

Oh yeah I'm not saying this pillock they wheeled out from Sheffield Uni or wherever wasn't talking out of their backside. He could have validly made an argument that RL is persistently living beyond its means because most clubs rely on the benevolence of rich directors to prop them up. I would make a whole bunch of equally valid arguments as to why that's not generally a problem and why it's the nature of sport and RL historically.

But this piece just didn't make that case. It went all big on "debt" with absolutely no context or, seemingly, understanding of how sports finance actually works.

I have a lot of time for George Riley but this was shoddy and superficial beyond belief.

Now can anyone help me: on 2nd March 2000 BBC Radio Five Live ran a piece in their "On the Line" series which coincided with the start of the Super League season. It was based, would you believe it, on a Sheffield University student's thesis or dissertation or something and noted that RL had less viewers on Sky than it had had on BBC before Super League. And therefore Rugby League was doomed. I seem to recall it was under the flawed misapprehension that the Stones Bitter Championship was televised on the BBC. There are some amazing similarities between that and this - but does anyone by any chance have a copy of that programme which was a hatchet job of a much more impressive scale than today's? I had a tape recording (

)of it somewhere but all I can find now is an empty cassette case with the date & details.

Andy Wilson ‏@andywiz must be something about the bbc and sheffield hallam. i remember them doing something apocalyptic on this 13 years ago. books.google.co.uk/books?id=lGri ... CDwQ6AEwAg … not sure if that helps.

Andy Wilson ‏@andywiz must be something about the bbc and sheffield hallam. i remember them doing something apocalyptic on this 13 years ago. books.google.co.uk/books?id=lGri ... CDwQ6AEwAg … not sure if that helps.

Quote ="MjM" Now can anyone help me: on 2nd March 2000 BBC Radio Five Live ran a piece in their "On the Line" series which coincided with the start of the Super League season. It was based, would you believe it, on a Sheffield University student's thesis or dissertation or something and noted that RL had less viewers on Sky than it had had on BBC before Super League. And therefore Rugby League was doomed. I seem to recall it was under the flawed misapprehension that the Stones Bitter Championship was televised on the BBC. There are some amazing similarities between that and this - but does anyone by any chance have a copy of that programme which was a hatchet job of a much more impressive scale than today's? I had a tape recording ( )of it somewhere but all I can find now is an empty cassette case with the date & details.'" Another gem from 'Rugby Special' boss in 2002- news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_ ... 849704.stm Quote As the show is called Rugby Special how much of the show will cover rugby league issues? Not very much, because it's a rugby union show. Rugby league has sold its soul to Sky, and it has to live with that. For rugby league fans we've got a very good online presence, we are carrying the Challenge Cup and we have highlights of the England internationals in the autumn. But the sport has done its deal with Mr Murdoch, and that's something rugby league fans have to deal with. If you live in the north of England there is the Super League Show, which is a regional transmission, and if you really want to see rugby league outside of the north, you should write to your local BBC and see if they'll carry it as a local transmission.'"

Quote ="MjM" Now can anyone help me: on 2nd March 2000 BBC Radio Five Live ran a piece in their "On the Line" series which coincided with the start of the Super League season. It was based, would you believe it, on a Sheffield University student's thesis or dissertation or something and noted that RL had less viewers on Sky than it had had on BBC before Super League. And therefore Rugby League was doomed. I seem to recall it was under the flawed misapprehension that the Stones Bitter Championship was televised on the BBC. There are some amazing similarities between that and this - but does anyone by any chance have a copy of that programme which was a hatchet job of a much more impressive scale than today's? I had a tape recording ( )of it somewhere but all I can find now is an empty cassette case with the date & details.'" Another gem from 'Rugby Special' boss in 2002- news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_ ... 849704.stm Quote As the show is called Rugby Special how much of the show will cover rugby league issues? Not very much, because it's a rugby union show. Rugby league has sold its soul to Sky, and it has to live with that. For rugby league fans we've got a very good online presence, we are carrying the Challenge Cup and we have highlights of the England internationals in the autumn. But the sport has done its deal with Mr Murdoch, and that's something rugby league fans have to deal with. If you live in the north of England there is the Super League Show, which is a regional transmission, and if you really want to see rugby league outside of the north, you should write to your local BBC and see if they'll carry it as a local transmission.'"

Quote ="Ganson's Optician"Another gem from 'Rugby Special' boss in 2002- news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_ ... 849704.stm '" Ah yes, other sports agree television contracts. Rugby League "sells its soul". Classic Pat Younge. What a prick he was.

Quote ="Ganson's Optician"Another gem from 'Rugby Special' boss in 2002- news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_ ... 849704.stm '" Ah yes, other sports agree television contracts. Rugby League "sells its soul". Classic Pat Younge. What a prick he was.

Quote ="J O N N Y"Andy Wilson ‏@andywiz must be something about the bbc and sheffield hallam. i remember them doing something apocalyptic on this 13 years ago. books.google.co.uk/books?id=lGri ... CDwQ6AEwAg … not sure if that helps.'" That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute .

Quote ="J O N N Y"Andy Wilson ‏@andywiz must be something about the bbc and sheffield hallam. i remember them doing something apocalyptic on this 13 years ago. books.google.co.uk/books?id=lGri ... CDwQ6AEwAg … not sure if that helps.'" That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute .

Haha I used to go to Sheffield Hallam.

Quote ="MjM"That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute rubbish.'" Here is the complete thesis: shura.shu.ac.uk/3161/ Basically anything which showed a positive trend was dismissed as only a tiny variance whilst anything going the other way was played up. Also completely oblivious to RL being on Sky pre-96 so compares BBC audiences before SL to Sky audience levels post-SL and concludes that the game had seen a massive reduction in viewers.

Quote ="MjM"That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute rubbish.'" Here is the complete thesis: shura.shu.ac.uk/3161/ Basically anything which showed a positive trend was dismissed as only a tiny variance whilst anything going the other way was played up. Also completely oblivious to RL being on Sky pre-96 so compares BBC audiences before SL to Sky audience levels post-SL and concludes that the game had seen a massive reduction in viewers.

Quote ="MjM" Quote ="MjM"That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute rubbish.'" Here is the complete thesis: shura.shu.ac.uk/3161/ Basically anything which showed a positive trend was dismissed as only a tiny variance whilst anything going the other way was played up. Also completely oblivious to RL being on Sky pre-96 so compares BBC audiences before SL to Sky audience levels post-SL and concludes that the game had seen a massive reduction in viewers.'" Can't seem to download it on my phone, however she lost me on the abstract anyway. What does she mean, that this was an attempt to " apply the American professional team sports model"? What, like using a college draft system, franchising, salary caps, and multi- network broadcast deals? Of which only 1 was in operation at the time of writing. Or was it that clubs had added animals names after their geographical one?! No I've had a traditional approach to learning about sport (I.e. attending games, and using my own mind to work things out) without being fed it by a lecturer and text book, so of someone can explain this American model to me I'm all ears. Hallam is clearly no Loughborough or Leeds Met it would seem (with due respect to any alumni on here!!)

Quote ="MjM" Quote ="MjM"That's the one - the BBC based a whole half hour of national radio programming to a load of absolute rubbish.'" Here is the complete thesis: shura.shu.ac.uk/3161/ Basically anything which showed a positive trend was dismissed as only a tiny variance whilst anything going the other way was played up. Also completely oblivious to RL being on Sky pre-96 so compares BBC audiences before SL to Sky audience levels post-SL and concludes that the game had seen a massive reduction in viewers.'" Can't seem to download it on my phone, however she lost me on the abstract anyway. What does she mean, that this was an attempt to " apply the American professional team sports model"? What, like using a college draft system, franchising, salary caps, and multi- network broadcast deals? Of which only 1 was in operation at the time of writing. Or was it that clubs had added animals names after their geographical one?! No I've had a traditional approach to learning about sport (I.e. attending games, and using my own mind to work things out) without being fed it by a lecturer and text book, so of someone can explain this American model to me I'm all ears. Hallam is clearly no Loughborough or Leeds Met it would seem (with due respect to any alumni on here!!)

Tough northerners my ar$e.
I new rl fans had insecurity problems but some of the whining thats going on on these forums is ridiculous

The levels of debt are usually misleading for the reasons others have mentioned. You'll find very very little in the way of externally sourced debt across SL - by which I mean actual loans from banks. Pretty much all other debts will be impossible to collect in the event of bankruptcy anyway, as most clubs wouldn't have the assets to liquidate to pay them off.

Just to pick an example, in their current position as tenants of a ground, how much exactly would anybody expect to be able to make if Salford were liquidated? They could have £10M or £100M in 'debt' but nobody will ever be able to collect it.

The only issue that really matters is the annual position of each club, and whether they are making enough money to cover operating costs each year. If they are then there shouldn't be a problem - if not then there will be a problem if their owners decide to stop financing them. In that regard SL is exactly the same as 95% of professional sports teams in the world.

So BBC does a hatchett job on RL a week out from the season opening. What a surprise! or maybe we just need "thiker skin", "be less paranoid", "stop our northern whingeing"?

F** the British media and how it treats our game, glad I am well out of it!

Is there personal benefits to directors "loaning" their club money each year rather than them giving it to them? Wondering if there is tax or other reasons directors term it this way seeing as, like you said, it is unlikely they will ever get it back.

Looked like a 10 minute advert for Castleford indoor Market to me followed by a few shots of the M62. What a L.O.B.

I'll offer a counter argument to the financial prudence approach that seems to get trotted out every time we get stories like this.

The only way for RL to prosper is for someone to come in with a sack full of cash and a great idea for promotion of the sport. Effectively putting all the clubs in more 'debt'
Unless this happens the sport will always be what it is now and probably get worse, there will be no fairy with a magic wand that makes people think wow this is a great sport I'll start going.
The international game is awful, its not going to get any better with initiatives and good will, the world cup will be a relative flop because there are only 2 good teams, one ok one and the rest are gash.
It may make a profit but it wont make a difference and we all know Australia will more than likely win it unless NZ can pull off a shock.

Even if the SL clubs worked within profit margins it is still based on 'shifting sands' as that level is fully reliant on sky not pulling the plug and lets be honest who wants to watch financially prudent clubs getting what they pay for, bang average players.

RL needs a 'big bang' moment to propel itself forward and unfortunately that will only come with a big bundle of cash, clubs running in debt backed by cash rich investors and the best players in the world coming over with a fanfare that the press gets behind. In essence we almost need and Indian Premier League type event to be launched. Anyone know a group of oligarch's that need a hobby....

I'd have thought George Riley had more integrity than to front this, 10 minutes of soundbites with no actual fact to back up their header claim.
He could have driven across country from Gloucester to Oxford and spent 10 minutes talking about how professional rugby league was expanding into new territory ? , maybe that would be far too positive .

to follow this , BBC follow this up with the usual quote 'Tony Smith diatribe' on their header page . about culling the SL to 10 teams , lets avoid facts , they get in the way.

There can be a benefit yes, and I've said elsewhere this is a complicated area, with accounts often reflecting tax and legal decisions.

This is a simple illustration (reality will be mote complicated, buy it makes a point). Let's say an owner wants to give a club £1m, and has no intention of every getting it back. He could subscribe to more shares, so the club would have the cash to spend; end of story.

Or he could lend the money to the club. This would show up as debt of course, but the interest would be tax deductible. This would also have the affect of making the club look like it makes less money-but it would save cash actually paid out by the business. The club need pay the interest on the loan to the owner-it coul be added to the loan itself (increasing the debt further).

So, in certain situations, it's advantageous of clubs to run with more debt -this will depend on the owners tax position, and a lot of other things. However, as I've also said elsewhere, to conclude on whether there is an issue you need to properly understand the legal structure at clubs. This is why this report is bolllocks, as it does nothing of the sort.

The first thing I heard when I woke up this morning was Tony Smith on the radio talking about 14 teams being unsustainable. The RL cannot control what a national broadcaster chooses to do with it's regional programmes, but the Superleague clubs could at least attempt to give out a positive message from their own season launch event. Regardless of the merits of his points, the timing was wrong. Will Smith be subject to the same criticism leveled at the Beeb and George Riley?