And yet you still can't make a point without resorting to rhetoric.

Can you explain to me exactly why Provident are more scum than any other financial institution? Or for that matter any multinational corporation? They loan to people who are unable to get loans from high street banks, but there's so many charities out there that provide free financial advice and most of them will tell you that taking out an additional loan may not be the best cause of action. But again, if these "vulnerable people" you bring out are not capable of ensuring they fully understand the financial commitment they're choosing to take on them maybe they shouldn't be looking to actually take on the financial commitment.

Well, I really didn't want to get into that, to be honest with you. People have their own opinions, which is why I watched this thread for a good number of pages without entertaining a reply.

What I was replying to, and what is important, is that consent or choice does not necessarily make something just, or ethically sound. I was correcting a poster with invalid reasoning.

I don't really want to go much further. We're not going to agree on Provident because our world views are a world apart. If you want to discuss in detail issues of class warfare, capitalism and more then you're free to create a thread in the appropriate section, or to private message me.

Clutching at straws to justify having a company like this on the shirt stinks, but as wheels says, its only the dawn and out, lazy, scroungers, and what heather els you can think of to justify it, makes perfect sense , as a company like this and what Bradford have don over the last few months, makes them a perfect match

Fine, your answer to him was based on completely different situations to the ones posed.

People in the 3rd world have NO choice but to work in sweatshops because it's that or they and their family starve and that's no choice at all. Is that right? Is that moral? Not by a f***ing long way.
People in the UK DO have a choice on taking out a high interest, short term loan or getting further financial advice before taking on heavy financial commitments.
You then continued with empty rhetoric about getting rid of minimum wage and Somalian women doing porn. What does that have to do with taking out a loan?

Who's clutching at straws?

Wheels was pointing out that a lot of those who complain about Provident's penalties are those who really shouldn't be taking out loans of this type to pay for unnecessary luxuries.

And as I pointed out there are people out there who are capable of taking out one of these loans and NOT get hit with the fines and penalties because they actually have a sense of responsibility when taking out financial commitments. Yet no one brings those people up and clearly there's a lot of them otherwise why else would Provident be able to stay in business or for that matter looking to expand?

Why is it the companies fault, if a customer takes out a loan, knowing full well the APR, and the penalties involved, knowing full well they cannot repay it? Yes they do take advantage of people's desperation for Money, but, at the end of the day, it's your own responsibility to manage your money better.

I have a family, a mortgage, and work scarcely above minimum wage. It's a struggle, sometimes, but I would never take this loans out due to the rates involved. To blame Provident for offering a service because there is a demand for that service is utterly stupid.

Well done the Bulls, great deal this.

They sell to anybody , they do not give a dam if they can afford it or not, they know the majority of people will not be able to pay back on time, thats why they are making a fortune of the vulnerable, not the minority who can pay back on time. How long was it that we declined sponsorship from a betting company, because it did not suit RLs image
if the company are so helpful watch BBC3 on wed, 10pb

It's okay to say that in hindsight, but I don't think that's true, myself. People aren't taking out these loans for the fun of their health, they're not doing it for 50 inch televisions (although I'm not saying that doesn't happen to a small degree(. Mainly people take out these loans for the same reason a person opts to work in a sweatshop, because it's that or they lose their house, can't feed their family, can't manage for the time being.

For the most part, people who take out these loans are doing it for their survival. It is wishful thinking and it is stupid on their part, that's understood, but the reason people turn to such companies is to get by. Not too unlike people who work in sweatshops because that's their only means of eating and living for the time being.

I don't think anybody disputes that it's stupid to use companies like Provident, what the rest of us are saying is that while yes there is responsibility for those who take the loans, that doesn't excuse the company for preying on the vulnerable like a kettle of vultures. You seem to think it's some sort of dichotomy whereby you either support the company or you support reckless borrowing, the reality is that you can be against both.

The minimum wage and Somalian porn argument was made to demonstrate that people consenting/choosing doesn't mean the people/companies preying on them are right in what they're doing.

I thought my argument, while being highly debatable, was pretty clear. Obviously not.

And make sure you read the rebuttal from Provident on their website, rather than resort to listening to only one side of the argument.

Also, they don't "sell to anybody". You have to prove you're able to afford the repayments. However, the way some people prove their capability of being able to pay are questionable in themselves.

But it's not either or, and that's the point. Just because people recklessly borrow money, and need to be responsible for their own actions, doesn't mean that a company that preys on said people is excused for what they do.

I will watch the program, all the facts are supposedly filmed by some one working there, then we can decide for ourselves

What do you mean "prey"

I'm pretty sure the person has to go to Provident and ask for the loan. Provident will then say yes we will give you the money but state CLEARLY if you do not pay it back you will be charge 4000%.

If that person signs anyway and can't afford the payment, as harsh as it is, that is their own fault. These vulnerable people have many other options to go to than a payday loan company.

Do you have a problem with Barclays pumping millions into the Premier league when they made people pay for a service without them knowing. Pretty sure that counts as theft or fraud. Do you refuse watch SKY sports which is owned by the same man at the centre of the phone hacking scandal. Do you also refuse to watch the BBC that is currently at accused of allowing many children to be abused?

So what your saying is sod_em, it wont effect me, typical, when your team when bang and couldn't raise the brass to pay its debts why didn't they approach this company for a lone to pay the debts off, im pretty sure they would have given you a good rate of interest.

Didn't you read the last page? You're recycling a flawed argument that's already been put to me - and answered.

What I mean by prey is exactly as the dictionary definition is(To victimise or make a profit at someone else's expense). The company, and others like it, prey on the most vulnerable of society. The fact that people [ichoose[/i to take out loans with them doesn't excuse what they do.

I don't know how many times I can say what I'm saying before it's understood. Am I not being clear in what I'm saying? I thought I was being clear. Do I need to write out my posts in coloured crayons for them to be understood?

Hallelujah at last, the quaint village yorkshire morality that has held rl back for 130yrs has now gone,surely this will now allow more companies to now look to sponsor/invest in RL.

Great news for Bradford and the game in general and I really cant believe people are criticising it. £300,000 a year is not to be sniffed at by any RL club, particularly Bradford after their recent troubles and as far as I recall they struggled to get a sponsor at all the last time they were looking for one. It is certainly at the higher levels for sponsorship in RL and really will help Bradford to become more of a force again.

is this another ''lets all rejoice in the Bulls good news' threads and if you dont you are a disgrace and not a true RL fan kind of thing ?

Brilliant news for Bradford, i'm so glad that after all the terrible things their club and wonderful fans have gone through this is another step in the right direction for this great club as it takes another step back to its rightful place as RL's flagship club....all hail the Bulls !!!!!!!!!!

I saw an add for this type of company and in not so small letters it states the interest, and to be honest only a complete moron would use these companies, and then to complain when they charge you an absolute fortune proves that you cant fix stupid!

To be brutally honest for 99.99% of the population in this country, your situation good or bad is of your own making!

These companies dont make people take out a loan and pay stupid amounts, its not difficult to curb your spending, we have all been in some level of debt in our lives, its quite simple cut out the stuff you dont need, (fags, beer, magazines, sky, gym), christ you can have cornflakes for your tea for a week its not that bad! Spend what you earn, it really isnt difficult to do.

A club that has been to the brink has managed to negotiate a cracking deal and people complain!

Only in RL!

You do realise there are things bigger and more important than RL dont you.

Or do you think poverty and exploitation etc are just side issues that get in the way of us enjoying our favourite sport.

Yeah loads of things more important to me that RL, to be honest its not even in my top ten, however considering if I owned a company who bradford where looking for me to sponser, knowing there recent history I may have offered them a few stickers on the side of my vans!!

And regards your second point, is a lending company who I must approach to use their services really exploiting me for doing so, I like a lot of people have, or have had a loan (uni fees), mortgage and car repayment, and I dont recall ever having a gun held to my head to take these out, I had a look at the repayments and my wage and judged if I could afford them, and in order to do so I had to cut back on a few things I didnt really need,.

I did however have the sence to avoid payday loan companies as what kind of fool would pay that level of interest for what in effect is only a few hundred pounds.

Naive? Maybe, but I can only go on my own experience.

I don't live in the 3rd world, I don't live in a country without the minimum wage and all the other things you mention.

I drink, but not often and not to excess. I have a bet, but as a form of entertainment and not money I can't afford to lose in the same way that I don't buy things I can't afford. I used to, but that got me into the situation when I needed payday loans.

Are they scum? They haven't been with me, and that's all I can go on.

I assume you can link to your posts criticising Huddersfield for their partnership with Grosvenor Casinos and for continuing to play at a stadium sponsored by a beer company?

Don't the RFL own Odsal? Shouldn't the naming rights money be going to them?

And who's it edited by? Are things being shown out of sequence or out of context? Are important facts being left out because they don't fit in with the story the producer of the film is wanting to put out?

There's also the fact that the BBC Director General has been given the boot over one lot of bad reporting and there are others within the BBC who's heads are likely next on the block, which kind of makes BBC's news a tad suspect on the honesty of their reports.

Given the situation at the BBC right now, it's never been more certain that this investigative documentary WILL have followed the guidelines impeccably.

Of course, it must be very hard to see through those red, amber and black glasses.