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| Haha we are all a bunch of dreamers when we want to be. I'm not sure we are ready for a conference system, nor are we ready for the idea of watching a merged team. We have a different culture in the UK whereas in the USA and Australia the people don't seem to care as much. I like the idea of a conference but there are too many problems. At the moment crowds are generally on the up, viewing figures are on the up and we are seeing a lot of young English lads breaking through. We don't need radical change at this time, I think Widnes' inclusion to Super League is great for the sport, hopefully Leigh and Halifax can put the hard work in over the next couple of years and get themselves ready for Super League. Dumping Toulouse or another Welsh team in SL is not the way forward.
One of the real problems is the Championship clubs though
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"The cap should match the SL grant, what is the difference at the moment?
Clubs should have 9 home SL games plus Mill magic. Create two conferences to help with away travel and generate more rivalary games. 7 teams in each conference. You play your conference home and away (12 games) and 7 games against the other conference + MM derby game givng a 20 game SL regular season.'"
That'd be a biggish cut to the cap, iirc. The SL grant is something like £1.1/£1.2m, [uI think[/u.
9/10 home games just isn't enough. Clubs would be waving goodbye to something like £200-500k. You'd need a League Cup type comp to make up the fixtures.
I think conferences is a good idea, but only if we could get 2 of 8 (22 fixtures). Even then you're losing 2 home games. Conference champs would feel like a proper prize, rather than the hub-cap which is just the poor relation of the SL trophy.
I've not got a plan for raising more cash, but player burn-out could be limited by capping the number of SL rounds any player can be involved in to 20. Stop 'em playing busted, and mitigates the impact of injuries.
Only danger I can see, is weaker teams resting half a team against the strongest in games they don't feel they have much of a chance in.
Players might want fewer games, and that would allow it without fans missing out and revenue being lost.
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| Quote ="Starbug"An interesting ' term ' for clubs outside the ' Elite '
'"
The gap between tiers 1 and 2 is massive and not bridgable through normal evolution and simple hard work, IMO.
There are strong arguments for this being necessary, but it certainly isn't desirable.
SL was and is about concentrating the wealth - going to 10 could either partially reverse that by creating a genuine SL2 whose teams would be given a SL grant (albeit a smaller one), or it could extend the process by just keeping all the cash in a ten-team SL1.
A small, genuinely elite SL sounds good if you put the stress on 'elite', rather than 'small'.
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| Quote ="TFC"Haha we are all a bunch of dreamers when we want to be. I'm not sure we are ready for a conference system, nor are we ready for the idea of watching a merged team. We have a different culture in the UK whereas in the USA and Australia the people don't seem to care as much. I like the idea of a conference but there are too many problems. At the moment crowds are generally on the up, viewing figures are on the up and we are seeing a lot of young English lads breaking through. We don't need radical change at this time, I think Widnes' inclusion to Super League is great for the sport, =#FF0000hopefully Leigh and Halifax can put the hard work in over the next couple of years and get themselves ready for Super League. Dumping Toulouse or another Welsh team in SL is not the way forward.
One of the real problems is the Championship clubs though'"
You seriously think we can double our fan bases in a couple of years ? , and draw any kind of meaningful ' corporate / sugar daddy ' support in the Championships ?
Not going to happen
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| Quote ="Starbug"You seriously think we can double our fan bases in a couple of years ? , and draw any kind of meaningful ' corporate / sugar daddy ' support in the Championships ?
Not going to happen'"
Dont be too harsh man, Fax think they are ready now and they will certainly be wanting a spot in 3 years time.
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| This is meant to be a 'super' league. How many teams/clubs do we actually have that can be classed as super?
Reduce the number of teams to 12, get rid of Wakey and one other. Increase the SC and the player pool at the top level will be much better.
If a club eventually becomes worthy of a franchise then they can have one.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"The gap between tiers 1 and 2 is massive and not bridgable through normal evolution and simple hard work, IMO.
There are strong arguments for this being necessary, but it certainly isn't desirable.
SL was and is about concentrating the wealth - going to 10 could either partially reverse that by creating a genuine SL2 whose teams would be given a SL grant (albeit a smaller one), or it could extend the process by just keeping all the cash in a ten-team SL1.
A small, genuinely elite SL sounds good if you put the stress on 'elite', rather than 'small'.'"
With respect, SL was formed to grab Sky nmoney,as the game was on its knees, following the massive overspend by certain super clubs.
As time has moved on more and more focus has been on trying to lift the quality in SL so that we can become strong enough as a nation to take on the Aussies, and to expand the game into new areas (to give us a "stronger" product to sell to Sky)
The "bigger" clubs are trying to reduce the number of teams, under the remit of "making the league stronger", however IMHO, they are simply tring to have a larger slice of the Sky cake.
How can SL need to cut to 10 teams, when only a few years ago, it was deemed so important to expand from 12 to 14 clubs.
The sport makes itself look amateurish by changing format so frequently, we want some stability, plus steady growth.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Dont be too harsh man, Fax think they are ready now and they will certainly be wanting a spot in 3 years time.'"
Not being ' Harsh ' , just being honest , and if they were honest with themselves they would probably agree with me , unfortunatly the other option is what ?, remain in the Championships watching your fans slowly lose interest
Its called the ' stuck between a rock and a hard place ' situation
Widnes with essentially 2 1/2 years to prepare and a reasonable fan base , not to mention sizeable sponsorhip and owner support are already struggling , anything less than they had in the Championship is doomed to failure
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| Quote ="Odem"This is meant to be a 'super' league. How many teams/clubs do we actually have that can be classed as super?
Reduce the number of teams to 12, get rid of Wakey and one other. Increase the SC and the player pool at the top level will be much better.
If a club eventually becomes worthy of a franchise then they can have one.'"
2, maybe 3. 4 at a push. But then 'super' is a subjective term. Perhaps 20.
Get rid of the worst club and somebody else becomes the runt of the litter.
Tbf, 12 wouldn't be in any way mental - but you have to stop culling somewhere, or it is just Leeds vs Wigan every week forever. An absurd extrapolation, I admit.
My preferences, based on a variety of real world factors: 14, 12, 16............big gap..........10.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"With respect, SL was formed to grab Sky nmoney,as the game was on its knees, following the massive overspend by certain super clubs.
As time has moved on more and more focus has been on trying to lift the quality in SL so that we can become strong enough as a nation to take on the Aussies, and to expand the game into new areas (to give us a "stronger" product to sell to Sky)
The "bigger" clubs are trying to reduce the number of teams, under the remit of "making the league stronger", however IMHO, they are simply tring to have a larger slice of the Sky cake.
How can SL need to cut to 10 teams, when only a few years ago, it was deemed so important to expand from 12 to 14 clubs.
The sport makes itself look amateurish by changing format so frequently, we want some stability, plus steady growth.'"
With respect, I agree.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"With respect, SL was formed to grab Sky nmoney,as the game was on its knees, following the massive overspend by certain super clubs.
As time has moved on more and more focus has been on trying to lift the quality in SL so that we can become strong enough as a nation to take on the Aussies, and to expand the game into new areas (to give us a "stronger" product to sell to Sky)
The "bigger" clubs are trying to reduce the number of teams, under the remit of "making the league stronger", however IMHO, they are simply tring to have a larger slice of the Sky cake.
How can SL need to cut to 10 teams, when only a few years ago, it was deemed so important to expand from 12 to 14 clubs.
The sport makes itself look amateurish by changing format so frequently, we want some stability, plus steady growth.'"
This.
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| Jamie Peacock and other proponents of reducing the size of SL assume that there will be the same number of 'quality players' as there are now but condensed into 10 teams rather than 14 thus improving the standard of SL. This may be true in the short term but they also assume rather naively that in the long term the same number of 'quality players' will continue to come through the ranks. What they don't appreciate is that without a SL club on the doorstep kids in Cas for example may not be drawn to rugby league at all and promising ball players might end up in soccer or some other sport. This is of course the reason given for expanding the game with top-flight teams in London, France and Wales. This is a minority sport. If we don't protect and nurture what we already have we'll be over-run by the big boys.
I suspect there's a reason why Jamie Peacock is a rugby league prop and not a professor of philosophy. He should stick to what he's good at.
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| Quote ="Starbug"You seriously think we can double our fan bases in a couple of years ? , and draw any kind of meaningful ' corporate / sugar daddy ' support in the Championships ?
Not going to happen'"
You would like to think that Fax/Leigh want Super League in the near future, Widnes achieved it so why can't other clubs? Without investment there will be no Super League for these clubs, however there is more potential for growth at Leigh than there is in Wales. Do you think there is a way in for Leigh / Fax?
I think Leigh could double their fan base in 2 years, absolutely.
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| Quote ="ExiledTiger"Jamie Peacock and other proponents of reducing the size of SL assume that there will be the same number of 'quality players' as there are now but condensed into 10 teams rather than 14 thus improving the standard of SL. This may be true in the short term but they also assume rather naively that in the long term the same number of 'quality players' will continue to come through the ranks. What they don't appreciate is that without a SL club on the doorstep kids in Cas for example may not be drawn to rugby league at all and promising ball players might end up in soccer or some other sport. This is of course the reason given for expanding the game with top-flight teams in London, France and Wales. This is a minority sport. If we don't protect and nurture what we already have we'll be over-run by the big boys.
I suspect there's a reason why Jamie Peacock is a rugby league prop and not a professor of philosophy. He should stick to what he's good at.'" But Cas are just one of a million towns in the world. If Cas not having an SL team means kids in Cas wont play RL and it is imperative that kids in Cas play RL wouldn’t the same apply to every other town in the world. If we need an SL team in Cas don’t we also need one in Featherstone, Hunslet, Pontefract, Selby, Batley, Bingley, Garforth, Silsden, Dewsbury, Sowerby Bridge, Knottingly, Mirfield, Hebden Bridge, Hemsworth, Farsley, Morely, Wetherby. Guisley and a million other towns in the world. Im sure you can see how unworkable your argument is, we cannot have every settlement in the country with an SL presence, its ridiculous. If kids wont play RL because their city rather than their small town is has an SL team then we may as well give up now because it is something that will never, and should never happen.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"But Cas are just one of a million towns in the world. If Cas not having an SL team means kids in Cas wont play RL and it is imperative that kids in Cas play RL wouldn’t the same apply to every other town in the world. If we need an SL team in Cas don’t we also need one in Featherstone, Hunslet, Pontefract, Selby, Batley, Bingley, Garforth, Silsden, Dewsbury, Sowerby Bridge, Knottingly, Mirfield, Hebden Bridge, Hemsworth, Farsley, Morely, Wetherby. Guisley and a million other towns in the world. Im sure you can see how unworkable your argument is, we cannot have every settlement in the country with an SL presence, its ridiculous. If kids wont play RL because their city rather than their small town is has an SL team then we may as well give up now because it is something that will never, and should never happen.'"
Just to "flip" your arguement slightly. What do you think would happen to RL in Castleford without a pro team in the town ?
Kids need something to aspire to and in Cas (and other places), if you take away RL, it is left with a ski slope.
You appear to be well informed Smokey, therefore you will know just how many clubs there are, in and around Cas, that ultimately feed the pro team.
Take this away and the goal disappears, yes they could play for Leeds or Bradford or whoever, but those kids aspire to be Cas players.
You mention lots of towns in your list and although there are some obvious exceptions, many of these places are not "hotbeds" of RL as Csastleford is.
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| I don’t agree that there is a huge difference between the amount of RL players in Dewsbury, Batley, Hunslet, Fev and their surrounding areas, and they survive as RL hotbeds without SL representation. In Leeds Rhinos we have one club, which represents a comparatively huge area and we don’t see Headingley as the only RL hotbed in the area.
Castleford are surrounded by Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford and Huddersfield. Surely that is enough clubs to see that Castleford can continue to have plenty of pathways and access to carry on being a hotbed.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I don’t agree that there is a huge difference between the amount of RL players in Dewsbury, Batley, Hunslet, Fev and their surrounding areas, and they survive as RL hotbeds without SL representation. In Leeds Rhinos we have one club, which represents a comparatively huge area and we don’t see Headingley as the only RL hotbed in the area.
Castleford are surrounded by Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford and Huddersfield. Surely that is enough clubs to see that Castleford can continue to have plenty of pathways and access to carry on being a hotbed.'"
So if Leeds were to disappear from SL for whatever reason, does this mean RL in the city would be unaffected ?
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| I don’t think that’s the comparison though is it. Leeds is a relatively huge area, representing a relatively huge area compared to Castleford. The question wouldn’t be would RL be affected in Leeds if the Rhinos disappeared it would be how does Leeds continue to produce players from across the city when there isn’t an SL team in Rothwell, Wetherby, Morley, Horsforth, Alwoodly, Pudsey, Bramley, Hunslet?
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| The clubs need to justify inclusion by what they offer, rather than what they need.
It's true that certain clubs offer more than others - If Wigan or Leeds disappeared, it'd be a bigger blow. But even then we'd move on and evolve.
At the moment, I think pretty much every club offers something worthwhile. If we really had to batten down the hatches, we could regrettfully lose a couple maybe. Going to 10 would be a big sacrifice, without many clear, likely or well-defined gains to balance it. IMO.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"The clubs need to justify inclusion by what they offer, rather than what they need.
It's true that certain clubs offer more than others - If Wigan or Leeds disappeared, it'd be a bigger blow. But even then we'd move on and evolve.
At the moment, I think pretty much every club offers something worthwhile. If we really had to batten down the hatches, we could regrettfully lose a couple maybe. Going to 10 would be a big sacrifice, without many clear, likely or well-defined gains to balance it. IMO.'"
But we wouldn't lose them though, they could easily be in a very strong 10 team 2nd Division with a promotion spot up for grabs.
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| Quote ="TFC"You would like to think that Fax/Leigh want Super League in the near future, Widnes achieved it so why can't other clubs? Without investment there will be no Super League for these clubs, however there is more potential for growth at Leigh than there is in Wales. Do you think there is a way in for Leigh / Fax?
I think Leigh could double their fan base in 2 years, absolutely.'"
Wanting something is one thing, affording it is another
As I said Widnes had double the fan base, massive sponsorship and a very rich owner, so tell me who will invest in a club outside SL with not much chance of getting in
Is there a way? , no
Well away you go Einstien, how do we double our fan base?
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| Quote ="Wheels"But we wouldn't lose them though, they could easily be in a very strong 10 team 2nd Division with a promotion spot up for grabs.'"
I'm surprised the swear filter hasn't kicked in here
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| Quote ="Starbug"I'm surprised the swear filter hasn't kicked in here
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Funny thing is, my suggestion would see the team I support 'Relegated' to Division 3... But at least they would be at a much more appropriate level.
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| Quote ="Wheels"icon_smile.gif
Funny thing is, my suggestion would see the team I support 'Relegated' to Division 3... But at least they would be at a much more appropriate level.'"
An ' appropriate ' level initially, but able to improve that level by performing on the pitch
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| Quote ="Starbug"An ' appropriate ' level initially, but able to improve that level by performing on the pitch
'"
It'll never catch on!
I completely understand that licensing is meant to bring clubs up to the 'elite' level, and while everybody insists on having 14 teams in SL I will support franchising, as it's the only way clubs will get a decent go at SL. The problem is IMO the gap will always remain the same (huge)... Surely a simple league restructure would be better?
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