Pryce will never play internationally again, but he's played well this year. Mickey Paea aside he's been Hull best player so far by quite a distance (not that big a feat though tbf).

This again; the fundamental problem is that the community game is pretty much the Wild West, with a load of Dad's wielding their coaching badges like a Sherrif's star, 'coaching' kids in ways that would cause many people to shake their heads in disbelief. There is far too little control, guidance, or setting of standards from the governing body; junior league officials are next to useless; and most clubs, due to lack of resources, are just relieved to find somebody, anybody, who will take on the coaching of a junior team. I'm sure some are well meaning, as I'm equally sure that some are downright horrible, but the standard of coaching in the community game is, as a rule, appalling - with some exceptions.

It all changes when you get to U15 of course - when you start to notice men in SL club badge emblazoned coats watching your matches from a discrete distance, making notes on a clipboard, and singling out the parents of promising young players in the car park afterwards; have enough of those promising youngsters, and suddenly you have SL players turning up to train with the kids, coaching sessions held at the SL club, or your coach being offered some role in the junior set-up at the SL club, on the understanding that he brings certain lads with him...

It's a mess, and it won't get any better until the RFL take the community game seriously and start supporting the jr clubs so that they a) do a much better job for the young people they purport to be bringing into the game and b) face sanctions if they don't use that support to behave appropriately.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the community game still under BARLA not the rfl?

Broadly speaking and excluding one or two genuine freak players I think any deficiencies in SL half backs' playmaking (or ball handling) abilities are relatively small. I think SL coaches right up from the juniors have gone a long way toward addressing the kind of problems which created scrum halves of the ilk of Andy Gregory who had to turn his back to pass the wrong way. Where we are seriously falling down is in the kicking department. But these issues are a product of inconsistent defensive capacities spread throughout SL before coaching per se.

Consider a top-tier scrum half taking the ball at first receiver on tackle three inside his own half of the field and outside the 20.

Does he:

a) Pass - knowing that his superior stand-off/centre combination pitted against a hopelessly inferior defence will likely yield anywhere between 10-20 yards on the play (perhaps more!) in a relatively safe option.

or

b) Kick - knowing that even if he manages not to kick it clean out on the full or down the throat of an onrushing fullback (who returns the ball to the half way mark) variables completely outside of his control (such as wind, an unlucky bounce etc.) may render even a technically well-executed kick a fail.

Direct observation suggests that most of the top scrum halves would much prefer option a). The problem is - by continually choosing option a) they further degrade their ability to execute option b). In effect, it's a feedback loop. Each successfully executed 3rd tackle passing play further undermines the scrum half's facility for executing a successful 3rd tackle kicking play.

All scrum halves perform this kind of mental risk-evaluation each tackle. But in Australia, where the talent pool is far more evenly spread, the decision to pass or kick isn't a foregone conclusion. Kicking on third tackle is an often-executed tactic. And because it is so - their scrum halves continue to get better. Practice makes perfect. The feedback loop is in a positive rather than a negative direction.

I agree entirely. I'm not sure of the exact reach the RFL currently have over the amateur game but I'm of the belief the RFL need to take much more direct control over the amateur leagues (at all age groups, not just junior) and get rid of the league officials who continually ignore bad practice from coaches, officials and clubs in their league.

Slowly but surely the penny..........................

I often wonder how much time players at top level actually dedicate to perfecting skills like open field kicking, rather than thinking they've made it and don't need to work on their game any more?

I'd imagine it's more a team issue than an individual issue (though some might prioritise it more and some might put more effort into it than others).
To properly practice it you need at least 1 or 2 "catchers" representing the full back and winger. Plus someone to give an acting half pass, plus 1 or "defenders" putting pressure on the kickers. So I'd imagine most open field kicking practice is done as part of a team session running through sets.

These days conditioners very closely monitor the workload of players in training so as to try and get maximum effect on matchday. So, other than a small amount of extra practice on his own in a less than ideal scenario, any significant extra effort put into open field kicking would take the place of something else (defence, attacking plays etc) rather than be an additional piece of training.

I don't think it is necessarily that they think they have made it, I think it is more that when a young player comes through in to SL pretty much immediately the focus changes from improving skills, to preparing him for the physical rigours of pro rugby. A small skilful player doesn't stand a chance even if he is the best thing since Johns unless he can physically stand up to it. And it takes a lot to get them there, a lot of physical training and recovery, not to mention learning the defensive structures, the attacking structures etc. The very best ones will be playing 30 games a year February until October, internationals in November, and starting pre-season in December by the time they are 20/21, and plus during that preseason they are packing on huge amounts of weight and muscle to get themselves big enough for SL. Look at how much Stevie Ward has put on this offseason, look at the difference in size between Watkins now and a few years ago.

Their skill development just gets put on the back burner as they get physically ready. For forwards they can probably catch back up and get enough in. A half back needs a hell of a lot more of that 'skills' time and enough time actually on the field to put it in to practice.

I imagine they practice plenty. But just as coaches often differentiate between "training fitness" and "match fitness" I think the same can be said about kicking. In training they kick hundreds of third tackle touch-finders. Doubtless, a high percentage spiral perfectly before bouncing once and then out.

But the same player at a top club just doesn't need to develop his kicking in match practice. For a start he knows his superior offence pitted against an inferior defence will likely result in a 20-25+ advantage in field position by tackle five. Given that even poor sides should be able to muster 20-30 yards per set against the most committed of defences the rough aggregate of both figures suggests there really is little need to develop an accurate long kicking game since you will almost certainly be - at the very worst - inside your opponents half. More likely his 20.

If you're finishing on the 20 you only really need work on your [ishort kicking game[/i.

Which is precisely the facet of kicking our scrum halves do specialise in.

I think maybe we should be looking at this question less from a perspective of failure and more as an inevitable consequence of the skewed dynamics of competition in SL.

Its a consequence, but not inevitable. It doesn't explain why the quality of attacking kicks in SL is far worse than the NRL for example. It probably does explain why SL halfbacks' game management skills appear to be way behind the NRL though - if you don't play close games it simply doesn't matter as much.

I would agree that the general skill level of players is higher today than ever. Watching NRL players pre-game, it seems that virtually every player can spin pass in both directions.

However, what an Andy Gregory had over today's halfbacks was an ability to break open a defence. That style of play of drifting across the line looking for runners is probably much harder now than it was, but when somebody does it well it's almost impossible to defend against. Thurston on form does exactly that, drifts across the line and is able to keep two or three options 'on' for the second or so it requires to force the defence to commit. He takes some big hits in the process, but its a joy to watch compared to so many halfbacks (NRL as well) who seemingly have no idea how to commit even a single tackler.

IMO its that ability which is so lacking in British halfbacks. They can throw a decent pass as part of a planned move, or do something creative in broken play. But make a defence open up by reading the play and choosing how and where to attack it? Almost a completely alien skill.

I think it goes A LONG WAY toward explaining our strengths and deficiencies. Our halves are pretty good at the short kicking game because the kind of half that plays for England (usually from a top club) inevitably finds himself inside his opponent's half on fifth tackle. This is not the case in the NRL where defences are that much tougher.

Take Travis Burns at Saints. He has a reputation for being an outstanding 40/20 kicker. But it's only recently that he's even attempted to bother. Given that his pack is making 10+ yards plus per carry there is NO NEED to obsessively develop match practice in long range kicking. It's a rare day when he's taking the ball on 4th tackle inside his own half.

As for ball handling - leaving aside one or two freaks in the NRL, I don't think there's a great deal of difference. After all, they had four halves on the field in our last game and really struggled over the line. It was us doing the attacking, not them. Or at least we were until the second half arrived.



Andy Gregory played for a good league team in Widnes (with backs like Lydon) and then went to Wigan Globetrotters where he had the best backs money could buy. Playing for GB he could count on many of his Wigan teammates plus the best backs from other clubs. And don't forget the fact that Wigan were in many ways ahead of Australia at that time. One of the amusing memories from the Micron Video days of ARL were the occupations flashed beneath player names ("Garbologist" being the finest). Comparisons between Gregory and ARL/Kangaroos are worthless.

Agreed - which is why the role of junior coaches is so important; young players should have been working on those skills consistently from U10, so that by the time they enter the Academy system, they're physically literate in the core skills of RL and are ready for the strength and conditioning work that enables them to survive weekly games.

I'm not suggesting that a 15-16 year old half back should be the finished article, but I have it from the horses mouth that Academy coaches are often faced with young players who have to unlearn a lot of the bad habits they've been coached as juniors before they can begin to realise their potential.

Agree with all that and it's something I've been told by academy coaches too. The academies and scholarships are basically having to re-teach the core skills to players plus try and do some of the more advanced work they should be starting to learn at that age plus try and start them on basic strength and conditioning.
Then add in the unsatisfactory jump from u19's to SL. Then add in the wide variance in the quality and professionalism of some scholarships and academies. And it's fairly clear to me why we don't produce enough top quality players in any position.

The entire development system isn't fit for purpose, but the worst part of it by a country mile is the amateur game. That's where the problems start and where many can be fixed. (Plus where you can massively increase participation of all ages).

Correct - the lack of basic coaching expertise, a single-minded desire to win every match and the total lack of any oversight (other than collecting fines) of junior league officials, means that the amateur game, especially at youth level, is a free for all; add in the unreasonable behaviour of many parents (attend an U13's game and listen to the delightful exhortations from the touchline) and it becomes easy to see why the lowest tier of the game is fundamentally unsound.

this is why I think the responsibility for youth development should be taken away from SL clubs. The players development should be taking priority at these young ages. They should be being taught skills and playing at an appropriate level for as long as possible.

Andrew Johns wouldn't stand out if his team is getting 40 points put on them by bigger and stronger sides. Youth RL and amateur, and development level is too often decided by giving it to the early developer and watching him skittle players and the focus changes to stopping children who are the size of men with children who are the size of children when they will catch up largely naturally anyway. The bigger players don't learn how to play when they can't just walk through a player a quarter their size and the younger ones don't get chance to learn their skills.

We need small sided games focussed on skill, more touch and pass and flag at the youngest ages, size and weight leagues whilst some lads are physically playing catch up, more and better skills coaching at a young age, and better funnelling through a system.

SL clubs have only just really been given responsibility for youth & junior development, since the reduction in Sport England funding a few years ago meant the end of the RFL development officers.

But the SL clubs have little influence and no direct control over the junior leagues. They are run by the leagues themselves. Quite how BARLA and the RFL interact with these leagues I'm not sure but the clubs themselves have no power over them.

The only thing the SL clubs can do is attempt to influence individual coaches through Coach Education and to try and help increase participation through involvement with amateur clubs.

As Bren2k rightly points out the big problem is with the leagues themselves. Unfortunately the league officials don't monitor or enforce the game anywhere near strictly enough. At least in part because they become far too friendly with club coaches and officials. (As an example a year or 2 ago I reported some pretty poor behaviour by coaches at an u12's game to a Yorkshire Juniors official only to be told it can't have happened because the person in question is a "good guy".)
There is also a problem with club officials who, like the league officials, don't monitor or enforce their own club properly. To the point where I've seen junior coaches drinking at the side of the pitch. The problem isn't confined to junior ranks either. The reason I stopped playing RL at the age of 16/17 was because of the behaviour of amateur clubs 1st and 2nd teams. On far too many occasions when I played for the 2nd team the 1st team (ours when at home, the oppositions when away) would be watching. Which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't drinking, swearing and taking the mick out of the opposition. That, plus the aggression and intimidation on the pitch put paid to amateur RL for me. So I went to my local Union club where these things didn't happen.

If I hadn't been from such a staunch RL family I'd probably be a Union fan.

That's a sad thing to read.

Junior leagues, in my experience, have absolutely no oversight of, or interest in, player development; they run league and cup competitions based on a system of fines and sanctions for disciplinary matters and, for example, forgetting to send a text message in by a certain time to submit the results of a match. If they have any involvement in player development, it's usually adverse, in that their complicated, convoluted player registration and transfer rules, designed I think to stop super-team building (which still happens anyway) actually prevent young players from getting out on the pitch - sometimes for months at a time.

It's got nothing to do with SL clubs and everything to do with the RFL - they need to get hold of the amateur game, especially at junior level, and whip it into shape; until that happens, the game will stutter in terms of being an attractive option participation wise for young players of all abilities, and in nurturing those players who have raw talent.

Something I know Brian McDermott has been striving to do at Leeds, in the face of pretty much wholesale apathy from local amateur clubs - at least at the outset.

Very much so. It's something I applaud him for and it's something most of his predecessors weren't really that bothered about.

I have to say the apathy isn't quite wholesale but unfortunately it does seem to be the same people turning up.
They usually seem to get 40 or so amateur coaches turning which is great. But when you think of how many clubs and age groups there are out there it's not all that many.

The bit that annoys me most is this though - a couple of times a year the Leeds Foundation take their Coach Education sessions "on the road" to an amateur club. They have the u19's training and Chris Plume and the other academy coaches/conditioners etc are all available to explain things and answer as many questions as people are willing to ask. It's great stuff as far as I'm concerned. However that is rarely backed up by the "host" amateur club. There's usually a token coach or 2 from the host club in attendance. There were even coaches taking training sessions whilst this was happening. Now if I had the opportunity of watching Leeds Rhinos academy train and to question their coaches at my club I'd have every single coach possible there, every single player over the age of about 10/11 there and anyone who had training that night would either have training cancelled to watch the u19's or at least break off for half an hour. I've just been gobsmacked by the lack of enthusiasm from some clubs.

I'd also make it into a big event that would pack out my club's bar and get a load of cash in.

But then my niece does keep telling me I'm weird so maybe it's just me.

we should be funnelling players through super clubs. Not necessarily super teams but super clubs. We should harness and invest in those clubs who can and do do the necessary things to get players through.

There good amateur sides out there doing great things, lets reward them and see if we can get others to follow.

There's a big difference between super-teams, whereby all the best/biggest young players are induced by hook or by crook to sign for a particular team, so they win everything that year - and a super club, which I assume means a well-run, professionally organised club, with teams of all age groups, that caters for mixed abilities and encourages players and parents to be respectful etc etc.

Your solution is one way - but it reduces the number of community clubs and probably reduces participation as a result; I think I'd rather see *all* clubs have their capacity to be super maximised, by giving them proper resources, support and oversight from the governing body; take some central funding off SL clubs so that community clubs don't have to beg, borrow or steal and attempt to nurture the future of the sport on goodwill, overstretched volunteers, unsuitable morons, or the largesse of a few Dads who own businesses and end up sponsoring the team their son plays for so they can buy a kit for the coming season.

It's a big job - but the top tier of the game will always struggle when the lowest tier is in such a mess.

Wasn't that the whole idea of Service Areas, that the best kids would be playing against and training with the best?

Yep. But it was struck by the curse of amateur rugby league. Ego. The Service Area coaches were picked from amateur clubs. Those coaches then had a habit of picking players from their club. (Not all obviously, but too many times). Also it unfortunately seemed to just further the problem of "playing to win" and "picking the big kid" rather than developing skills.

From what I've seen of the Embed the Pathway scheme I'm very much encouraged by that, though I've already heard reports of clubs and coaches trying to abuse the new system of Development Days already.