It may be his long term position but hasn't played there at all for FC in the first team and would be crucified by Aus.

I don't think he would be though, I think he's a quality player and his defence is top notch. Like I say though, if he hasn't played there then I wouldn't play him there this time, I just thought he had!

I'd bring Clubb in at centre for Atkins, he may not offer a lot in attack but defensively he is probably the best 3/4 we have which will be important against the Aussies.

I would eventually like to see Tom develop into a centre, but like mentioned he would be crucified right now at International level, the kid can move if only he was passed the ball!!
Decent game, cleaned a few balls up and defended well, I just hope he see's some ball from the centre's in the next few games.

Tony Clubb has to start against Australia, IMO.

My feelings on the match:

Widdop - Not as bad as is being made out, dropped a bomb which is easy done under pressure. Trying to make the one-on-ones, generally got it but far too many breaks to contend with. normally safe at close range, very good at escaping the in goal area. In attack, he doesn't strike me as a fulback, he needs to play SO in attack for me, with Tomkins in FB position in attack. Imo deserves his place.

Goulding - I wasn't for bringing him into the side, but strong defence, consistently gaining 8m+ on the scoot, spinning out of tackles. Got zero ball in attack though. Did more than enough to retain his spot.

Shenton - Shocking positional sense in defence again, a bit too weak in the tackle for me (to be fair Junior is massive), but in attack 2nd, he has some serious speed! Needs to use that more.

Atkins - Shocking positional sense, made to look an absolute fool by Marshall (not the first), SKD and Nightingale. Should be dropped really even if he recovers. As to who replaces him, I'm unsure. I would have thought Cudjoe would deserve a match this 4N, maybe bring Briscoe in?...just maybe not against the Aussies. Tough choice.

Briscoe - Class winger imo. Wasn't that involved in the game, but he's one of the few players in our team that constistently realises to cover the ball to stop tries.

Brown - Better this week, seemed to be feeding off the kicks quite well, should have had a try. Couldn't really make any of his own. Gutted we're missing Eastmond, Pryce, McGuire and Sinfield, but he's what we're down to I suppose.

Tomkins - Looked off his game to me, possibly a bit injured. Exposed in the left side defence somewhat, although you could have marched a parade through the spaces either side of him. He has to play 3rd reciever, not 1st, whatever position he is listed as.

Graham - Very good match all round.

Roby - Bar early errors, a good game from him. Good (lucky) try.

Fielden - Got his usual stupid error in there, played far less minutes than I'm used to seeing him play. Not too much wrong though.

Ellis - Drive after drive from the same drop off pass from Tomkins, made the yards. Poor attempt on SDK.

Burgess - Not as good as the commentators made out, fitness is superb though, and made a good impact.

O'Loughlin - Personally my MOM for England. Made breaks, drove it in well, good acceleration shown, tackled constantly, did some organising, testing kicks that unfortunately didn't pay off. Great all round performance.

Robinson - Improved again, looks elusive in broken play, has to be careful with the dummy runners though. Could do with a bit more speed but much better this week.

Tomkins - Unused, not running it in as strongly as earlier in the year, needs to start making contact with the opposition chest again, in particular should be running at centres/halves and using his speed more. Not his best bit still not used enough for me.

Westwood - Constistent bar the SKD try. Played well, fully deserves a spot next week.

Griffin - Ineffectual imo, Crabtree is a far better international player. We need to make this switch for the Aussies next week.

From were I was sat, the pack got smashed and so we lost the game.

IMO the building block's are there now, just need a coach.

Imagine if Bennett was let loose on the team that played tonight (it resembles a Bennett team - huge forward pack just need to adjust the backline)

Do you even watch Rugby League?

The guys who has missed the most tackles in SL this year?
Great idea...

Don't think the pack did get smashed. Rubbish opening 20 mins cost us the game, too many errors, and then lacked the cutting edge in the last 10 of the 1st half to score. Completion rate and lack kicking game were our biggest enemies. It's all ifs and buts though, NZ were also below their best, it could have easily been 20+ at half time.

There were areas of the game where England were far far superior to the kiwis and it showed.

The kiwis couldn't cope with it so reverted to other things rather than copy England.

1) Our one man barge, head down,, backside up don't bother to even consider offloading was a joy to behold. The kiwis came nowhere near. Far far superior were England.

2) The teams view on keeping energy reserves was far superior to the Kiwis, why waste energy supporting the ball carrier because the option above was such a game breaker, plus by not running from deep less energy was used before submitting to the tackle.


At least these are positives to take from the game.

As for the Kiwis, sadly they had pace, skill, guile, strength and an open style of play which although not that successful would, with fine tuning cause the aussies problems.

England will improve for the next game that's for sure. The superior areas mentioned above will be done quicker and the Aussies WILL be worried.

You know what? The (I presume) Chinese characters in your sig are starting to look like pictures. The first two look like smiling faces wearing hats. The third looks like someone blowing a vuvuzela. The last looks like someone ski jumping. AMIRITE?

He also made more tackles than any other contender for a centre spot. His stats compare favourably against the others :-

Clubb

Meters 2568
Carries 383
Tackles 515

Atkins

Meters 2421
Carries 306
Tackles 353

Cudjoe

Meters 2608
Carries 368
Tackles 258

Shenton

Meters 1403
Carries 209
Tackles 362

This to me is one of the biggest myths of all with regards to England over the last few years.

We arent really any stronger there than NZ or Australia there no matter how much some people try to kid themselves. When we play up the middle like the old Bradford style it is so predictable and makes it easy for the defending team. Indeed we were dominated today. We look at our best offloading and playing wider and we actually make the oppositions defence work. Our backs may not be great but you cant completely ignore them in attack as England seemed to do in the first half.

must admit our pack did get more dominated than I expected. Struggling to think of any big hits they put in? Alot was down to making 70 more tackles, poor field position, not having half backs who could feed them the ball at the right time etc but I'd say only 1/2 the pack lived up to their reputation.

Have to remember NZ only played with 16 for most of game as well.

He has had to make more tackles, he played for a poor team. This would also explan why he has missed more I suppose.

What concerns me the most though is this. In the Super League, against backlines from the mighty Bradford, Crusaders, Salford, Catalans etc etc, the % of tackles missed are as follows:

Cudjoe 4.65%
Atkins 8.50%
Shenton 9.39%
Clubb 17.86%

He's a liability we can't afford imo. Missing nearly 1/5 against poor backlines is shocking, imagine what he would miss against some of the top NRL backs!

I'm not saying you should ignore the backs, use them as much as possible! All I'm saying is that they're not good enough to take advantage of the possession they're given. The forwards are capable of matching NZ, unfortunately the backs aren't.

I am not surprised by Shenton's stats either, he is awful in defence. I thought he was really poor in the first half and one good run in the second doesnt really change that. Yes he saw a lot more of the ball in the second half but rarely did anything with it and he seems incapable of passing the ball. As for Atkins he was really awful and shouldnt be picked next week.

england were pretty much useless.

too much dropped ball

too much missed tackles.

scoreline couldve been much worse and they were down a player for most of the game

fair enough Dally, but I like to look at the positives.

NZ were obviously fired up, putting in the shots in front of the home crowd, that was always to be expected.

And I thought NRL refs had sped up the play-the-ball?? There are specific skills and technique to slowing down the tackle but all we saw from NZ was messing about on the floor and loads of pushing & shoving at the ptb. Found the ref's lack of control there frustrating.

Too much dropped ball and some weak defence from England, but when we got a roll-on we looked dangerous. Unfortunately we failed to control the ruck and let NZ get roll after roll at pace and pin us back in the first half.

Widdop too weak at full-back. He showed it against the Maori; when anyone of any size breaks he seems to just throw himself at their legs and hope for the best - Sam at least has great tackling technique and can bring anyone down.

There's definitely potential; cut out the errors and slow the ruck and we've got a chance. Let them come at us on a roll and we'll be annihilated.

I thought Archer had a game again, surely this bloke has pictures of the ref's boss in a compromising position with an animal

Nearly finished watching the game. Absolutely no refereeing inclination either way so far. I had a look at the final penalty counts and they reflect my observation. Pretty much what I suspected.

I'm not going to pay attention to any more cries of uneven refereeing. I should've learnt that after posters still tried to make ref excuses after the Kangaroos pasted England in the final last year. To those who want to whinge, get a grip.

On the team performances. England can do some good things when they get on a roll, but there's just not enough threat across the park to create worries for Test standard defence. The forwards at parity with their opposition (which they failed to reach tonight) isn't good enough. They need to dominate for most of the game for any chance of an English win. I simply can't see this happening against either New Zealand or Australia. There's quite a few good, tough players in the pack, some very good, but they're essentially overrated by their fans.

I expect a much better performance next week, this was a wake-up call that they shouldn't have needed. But a win is hard to see.

The Kiwis, if they improve throughout the tournament like usual, will be very tough to beat. They just looked way more organised and far better equipped across the park. You can see their ideas, confidence and motivation (in contrast to England). The timing is still out, but if it clicks...damn.

More than ever i'm not willing a complete performance from Australia tomorrow. I could be wrong, but I don't expect PNG to be a good litmus test and if we don't thrash them, i'll be a little bit concerned all week.

What was Luke's problem? Kept being right dirty. Had a go at the defenders nearly everytime he played the ball, and kept putting in cheap efforts in the tackle, as well as a clear trip on Ellis in the 42nd minute.