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| Quote ="JB Down Under"For main sponsor rights AND stadium naming rights 300k a year doesn't sound that great a deal, or is that how low SL clubs are valued at the moment?'" It's probably around the same as the main shirt sponsorship at Leeds but obviously that excludes the stadium name. But it's certainly not a shabby deal given where the Bulls have been in recent times and their immediate on field prospects as they rebuild.
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| Quote ="jonny the leyther"
I agree banking is corrupt, but now do we have a go at Halifax for their sponsors?
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Halifax are sponsored by a media company.
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| Quote ="roofaldo2"Yes, but Halifax and other high street lenders don't give short term loans. In fact, most high street lenders have been in trouble over slapping on payment protection insurance either without telling the people getting it or telling them they can't have the loan unless they take out the insurance.
And the 400% you're banging on about? That's the APR. APR is an annual rate, not applicable to most loans from them as they tend to be 5 or 8 month loans. Clearly you either don't understand that, or you are purposefully ignoring facts that don't fit your argument and if it's the 2nd the clearly anything you say is bunk and can safely be ignored.'"
stick to supporting your club rather than trying to pretend you know about the realities of the loans.
These companies lend to to the mentally and emotionally ill, the desperate, the unemployed, those on benefits, those who lead difficult and hence chaotic lives. The result is that the loan maybe taken out as a short term loan but when they cannot keep up with payments, or miss a payment and pay penalty fees at the loans often go on for months or YEARS after they should have finished.
If is was a Bulls fan i may have to accept that the company gave a desperate club the money BUT i would not buy the shirt and advertise such an awful company.
I look forward to a tie up with ASSAD enterprises and see if Bulls fans stil want to look the other way.
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| Quote ="Wheels"Nobody is forced to use those kind of companies you know.'"
Exactly. I used them when I needed money and couldn't get credit elsewhere. I knew the terms and the high interest rates and had no problems with them. Just like all lines of credit, if you can't afford to pay it back, it's your fault for taking it out. We're too quick to blame everyone for our own failings, whether that is taking out loans, smoking, drinking or gambling - no-one forces anyone to do any of them!
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"stick to supporting your club rather than trying to pretend you know about the realities of the loans.
These companies lend to to the mentally and emotionally ill, the desperate, the unemployed, those on benefits, those who lead difficult and hence chaotic lives. The result is that the loan maybe taken out as a short term loan but when they cannot keep up with payments, or miss a payment and pay penalty fees at the loans often go on for months or YEARS after they should have finished.
If is was a Bulls fan i may have to accept that the company gave a desperate club the money BUT i would not buy the shirt and advertise such an awful company.
I look forward to a tie up with ASSAD enterprises and see if Bulls fans stil want to look the other way.'"
Well, given I worked in banking for 5 years, I think I've a fairly good grasp of the the realities of loans and what the terms and conditions of the loans entail. Yes, provident do loan to those who are unable to get a loan from a high street bank. But if these people are in such trouble and don't have the ability to manage their own finances then they should be seeking professional help. The CAB offers this help and other information. If they can't be bothered to investigate other options before leaping into a high interest, short term loan then more fool them.
I also think it's funny that a Huddersfield fan can comment on others moral stance given the questionable way your club went about signing Kopczak.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"These companies lend to to the mentally and emotionally ill, the desperate, the unemployed, those on benefits, those who lead difficult and hence chaotic lives...'"
These companies also lend to the lazy, benefit scrounging fops with 8 kids who don't bat an eye when spending £40 in the pub on a Friday and £35 in fags every week but also need the latest iPhone, 50 inch TV and Playstation, but at the same time expect something for nothing.
Its good to generalise isn't it?
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| Quote ="Wheels"These companies also lend to the lazy, benefit scrounging fops with 8 kids who don't bat an eye when spending £40 in the pub on a Friday and £35 in fags every week but also need the latest iPhone, 50 inch TV and Playstation, but at the same time expect something for nothing.
Its good to generalise isn't it?'"
You are David Cameron and i claim my £5.
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Next you will be telling us you are one of the deserving disabled as opposed to those scroungers who are not disabled and should not get benefits.
Its good to genralise isnt it
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| Quote ="t-r-i-n-i-t-y"Exactly. I used them when I needed money and couldn't get credit elsewhere. I knew the terms and the high interest rates and had no problems with them. Just like all lines of credit, if you can't afford to pay it back, it's your fault for taking it out. We're too quick to blame everyone for our own failings, whether that is taking out loans, smoking, drinking or gambling - no-one forces anyone to do any of them!'"
That's bit of a naive outlook.
Nobody forces(in most cases) adults, or children, to work in inhumane conditions that pay sweet FA in some 3rd world hell hole - that doesn't mean, because workers are 'choosing' to work, that a company exploiting said labour is ethically justified.
Should we remove the minimum wage, get rid of regulation of working hours and let people at the bottom of society "choose" to work 16 hours a day for £1 an hour. Would anybody accept a company employing such people is ethically sound, because the workers in theory "choose" to work there?
Or maybe I go to Somalia or some other place ravaged by famine and pay starving women to be in my pornography films. Would it be fair to criticise me for that or does the fact that they're 'choosing' to do it excuse what I'm doing?
I could carry on like this but I don't want to bore you.
What I'm getting at is that Provident, and other vulture companies like them, are scum. That people aren't forced to use their services doesn't really change that.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"You are David Cameron and i claim my £5.
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Next you will be telling us you are one of the deserving disabled as opposed to those scroungers who are not disabled and should not get benefits.
Its good to genralise isnt it'"
It maybe me but I think you missed the point of his post??? I thought he was posting sarcastically!
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| Quote ="r a n c i d"That's bit of a naive outlook.
Nobody forces(in most cases) adults, or children, to work in inhumane conditions that pay sweet FA in some 3rd world hell hole - that doesn't mean, because workers are 'choosing' to work, that a company exploiting said labour is ethically justified.
Should we remove the minimum wage, get rid of regulation of working hours and let people at the bottom of society "choose" to work 16 hours a day for £1 an hour. Would anybody accept a company employing such people is ethically sound, because the workers in theory "choose" to work there?
Or maybe I go to Somalia or some other place ravaged by famine and pay starving women to be in my pornography films. Would it be fair to criticise me for that or does the fact that they're 'choosing' to do it excuse what I'm doing?
I could carry on like this but I don't want to bore you.
What I'm getting at is that Provident, and other vulture companies like them, are scum. That people aren't forced to use their services doesn't really change that.'"
The thing is, there's a flip side to the coin. What about those people who borrow from them and then pay back what they've borrowed on time? You know? The sensible people who work for their money and just need a stop gap to get over a financial pitfall.
The people who call foul against companies like Provident are usually the type who want something for nothing, shouldn't be entering financial commitments because they're either unwilling or incapable of keeping up with the payments or my personal favourite those who will just sign up for anything without reading the documentation and then complain when the penalties that are clearly laid out in the documentation are imposed on them.
Also, as for those who work for a pittance in 3rd world countries, I assume them as you're taking such a strong moral stance that neither you nor anyone in your family has ever bought any product produced by the coca-cola company. Or bought brand-named trainers? I also assume therefore that your strong moral centre means you boycot supermarkets like Tesco and refuse to have anything to do with fast food outlets like McDonalds.
If you do, then that kind of makes you a hypocrite for invoking the use of 3rd world labour in your self justificating argument
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| Quote ="roofaldo2"The thing is, there's a flip side to the coin. What about those people who borrow from them and then pay back what they've borrowed on time? You know? The sensible people who work for their money and just need a stop gap to get over a financial pitfall.
The people who call foul against companies like Provident are usually the type who want something for nothing, shouldn't be entering financial commitments because they're either unwilling or incapable of keeping up with the payments or my personal favourite those who will just sign up for anything without reading the documentation and then complain when the penalties that are clearly laid out in the documentation are imposed on them.
Also, as for those who work for a pittance in 3rd world countries, I assume them as you're taking such a strong moral stance that neither you nor anyone in your family has ever bought any product produced by the coca-cola company. Or bought brand-named trainers? I also assume therefore that your strong moral centre means you boycot supermarkets like Tesco and refuse to have anything to do with fast food outlets like McDonalds.
If you do, then that kind of makes you a hypocrite for invoking the use of 3rd world labour in your self justificating argument'"
I will not go through all of your post as it would take too long.
Yes it is hard to be completely ethical about everything we do in respect of finances when we live in an unfair world BUT we allof choices.
IF you want to support your club and buy a shirt, fine. But why not get 3 pieces of black insulating tape and put them over the main sponsors name.
Hey presto supporting your club, not promoting a pretty scummy company and making a political principle.
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| Quote ="roofaldo2"The thing is, there's a flip side to the coin. What about those people who borrow from them and then pay back what they've borrowed on time? You know? The sensible people who work for their money and just need a stop gap to get over a financial pitfall. '"
What about them?
Quote ="roofaldo2"The people who call foul against companies like Provident are usually the type who want something for nothing, shouldn't be entering financial commitments because they're either unwilling or incapable of keeping up with the payments or my personal favourite those who will just sign up for anything without reading the documentation and then complain when the penalties that are clearly laid out in the documentation are imposed on them. '"
The people who call foul against companies like Provident are usually the type who don't like wealthy, scummy suits trawling the very bottom of society, preying on the vulnerable and bankrupting struggling families to further their own greed.
See, I can do that as well.
Quote ="roofaldo2"Also, as for those who work for a pittance in 3rd world countries, I assume them as you're taking such a strong moral stance that neither you nor anyone in your family has ever bought any product produced by the coca-cola company.'"
I don't own my family!!! What my family buys has nothing to do with me, what my family believes, thinks and feels and how they act on it has positively nothing to do with me. What I've bought in the past is irrelevant, also.
Is a vegetarian who ate meat growing up invalidated by that fact, when putting forward argument against meat eating on ethical grounds? Is a vegetarian whose family eats meat invalidated by that fact? Is a Socialist whose family is Capitalist a hypocrite? What about an environmentalist that owned a hummer when he was younger, is he not allowed to have ethical qualms today?
What I've bought in the past, what my family buy today, they have nothing to do with what my position is, right now.
Quote ="roofaldo2"Or bought brand-named trainers? I also assume therefore that your strong moral centre means you boycot supermarkets like Tesco and refuse to have anything to do with fast food outlets like McDonalds.'"
Pretty much.
Quote ="roofaldo2"If you do, then that kind of makes you a hypocrite for invoking the use of 3rd world labour in your self justificating argument'"
But IF I did, it would have nothing to do with the validity of my statements. Me buying Coca Cola as a teenager doesn't in anyway justify or excuse the evils of Coca Cola! Even if I drank Coca Cola today it would make me a hypocrite, yes, but it wouldn't invalidate my criticisms of Coca Cola.
I don't even follow the reasoning you're trying to use here... It's literally baffling. Did it make sense when you wrote it?
Anyway, the point I was making is that choice in itself doesn't make something just. There are a lot of bad things in the world that people voluntarily enter into. The fact people choose to use Provident tells us nothing when discussing whether they're a good or bad company.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"I will not go through all of your post as it would take too long.
Yes it is hard to be completely ethical about everything we do in respect of finances when we live in an unfair world BUT we allof choices.
IF you want to support your club and buy a shirt, fine. But why not get 3 pieces of black insulating tape and put them over the main sponsors name.
Hey presto supporting your club, not promoting a pretty scummy company and making a political principle.'"
Why? I have no real reason to disrespect the sponsors in that way. You might have a problem with their lending but they're really no worse than any other banking institution other than they are more willing to take on high risk borrowers and as they are high risk then penalties are more sever. Don't like it? Then don't borrow from them. Or if you do, make sure you've full read up all the terms and conditions, or gotten help from CAB or another financial help charity, to ensure you fully understand what you're taking on.
If you can't take simple steps to safe guard yourself in financial matters then you've not place to go taking out a financial commitment that you can't deal with.
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| Quote ="r a n c i d"What about them?
The people who call foul against companies like Provident are usually the type who don't like wealthy, scummy suits trawling the very bottom of society, preying on the vulnerable and bankrupting struggling families to further their own greed.
See, I can do that as well.
I don't own my family!!! What my family buys has nothing to do with me, what my family believes, thinks and feels and how they act on it has positively nothing to do with me. What I've bought in the past is irrelevant, also.
Is a vegetarian who ate meat growing up invalidated by that fact, when putting forward argument against meat eating on ethical grounds? Is a vegetarian whose family eats meat invalidated by that fact? Is a Socialist whose family is Capitalist a hypocrite? What about an environmentalist that owned a hummer when he was younger, is he not allowed to have ethical qualms today?
What I've bought in the past, what my family buy today, they have nothing to do with what my position is, right now.
Pretty much.
But IF I did, it would have nothing to do with the validity of my statements. Me buying Coca Cola as a teenager doesn't in anyway justify or excuse the evils of Coca Cola! Even if I drank Coca Cola today it would make me a hypocrite, yes, but it wouldn't invalidate my criticisms of Coca Cola.
I don't even follow the reasoning you're trying to use here... It's literally baffling. Did it make sense when you wrote it?
Anyway, the point I was making is that choice in itself doesn't make something just. There are a lot of bad things in the world that people voluntarily enter into. The fact people choose to use Provident tells us nothing when discussing whether they're a good or bad company.'"
And yet you still can't make a point without resorting to rhetoric.
Can you explain to me exactly why Provident are more scum than any other financial institution? Or for that matter any multinational corporation? They loan to people who are unable to get loans from high street banks, but there's so many charities out there that provide free financial advice and most of them will tell you that taking out an additional loan may not be the best cause of action. But again, if these "vulnerable people" you bring out are not capable of ensuring they fully understand the financial commitment they're choosing to take on them maybe they shouldn't be looking to actually take on the financial commitment.
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| Quote ="roofaldo2"And yet you still can't make a point without resorting to rhetoric.
Can you explain to me exactly why Provident are more scum than any other financial institution? Or for that matter any multinational corporation? They loan to people who are unable to get loans from high street banks, but there's so many charities out there that provide free financial advice and most of them will tell you that taking out an additional loan may not be the best cause of action. But again, if these "vulnerable people" you bring out are not capable of ensuring they fully understand the financial commitment they're choosing to take on them maybe they shouldn't be looking to actually take on the financial commitment.'"
Well, I really didn't want to get into that, to be honest with you. People have their own opinions, which is why I watched this thread for a good number of pages without entertaining a reply.
What I was replying to, and what is important, is that consent or choice does not necessarily make something just, or ethically sound. I was correcting a poster with invalid reasoning.
I don't really want to go much further. We're not going to agree on Provident because our world views are a world apart. If you want to discuss in detail issues of class warfare, capitalism and more then you're free to create a thread in the appropriate section, or to private message me.
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| Clutching at straws to justify having a company like this on the shirt stinks, but as wheels says, its only the dawn and out, lazy, scroungers, and what heather els you can think of to justify it, makes perfect sense , as a company like this and what Bradford have don over the last few months, makes them a perfect match
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| Quote ="r a n c i d"Well, I really didn't want to get into that, to be honest with you. People have their own opinions, which is why I watched this thread for a good number of pages without entertaining a reply.
What I was replying to, and what is important, is that consent or choice does not necessarily make something just, or ethically sound. I was correcting a poster with invalid reasoning.
I don't really want to go much further. We're not going to agree on Provident because our world views are a world apart. If you want to discuss in detail issues of class warfare, capitalism and more then you're free to create a thread in the appropriate section, or to private message me.'"
Fine, your answer to him was based on completely different situations to the ones posed.
People in the 3rd world have NO choice but to work in sweatshops because it's that or they and their family starve and that's no choice at all. Is that right? Is that moral? Not by a f***ing long way.
People in the UK DO have a choice on taking out a high interest, short term loan or getting further financial advice before taking on heavy financial commitments.
You then continued with empty rhetoric about getting rid of minimum wage and Somalian women doing porn. What does that have to do with taking out a loan?
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| Quote ="frank5613"Clutching at straws to justify having a company like this on the shirt stinks, but as wheels says, its only the dawn and out, lazy, scroungers, and what heather els you can think of to justify it, makes perfect sense , as a company like this and what Bradford have don over the last few months, makes them a perfect match'"
Who's clutching at straws?
Wheels was pointing out that a lot of those who complain about Provident's penalties are those who really shouldn't be taking out loans of this type to pay for unnecessary luxuries.
And as I pointed out there are people out there who are capable of taking out one of these loans and NOT get hit with the fines and penalties because they actually have a sense of responsibility when taking out financial commitments. Yet no one brings those people up and clearly there's a lot of them otherwise why else would Provident be able to stay in business or for that matter looking to expand?
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| Why is it the companies fault, if a customer takes out a loan, knowing full well the APR, and the penalties involved, knowing full well they cannot repay it? Yes they do take advantage of people's desperation for Money, but, at the end of the day, it's your own responsibility to manage your money better.
I have a family, a mortgage, and work scarcely above minimum wage. It's a struggle, sometimes, but I would never take this loans out due to the rates involved. To blame Provident for offering a service because there is a demand for that service is utterly stupid.
Well done the Bulls, great deal this.
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| They sell to anybody , they do not give a dam if they can afford it or not, they know the majority of people will not be able to pay back on time, thats why they are making a fortune of the vulnerable, not the minority who can pay back on time. How long was it that we declined sponsorship from a betting company, because it did not suit RLs image
if the company are so helpful watch BBC3 on wed, 10pb
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| Quote ="roofaldo2"Fine, your answer to him was based on completely different situations to the ones posed.
People in the 3rd world have NO choice but to work in sweatshops because it's that or they and their family starve and that's no choice at all. Is that right? Is that moral? Not by a f***ing long way.
People in the UK DO have a choice on taking out a high interest, short term loan or getting further financial advice before taking on heavy financial commitments.
You then continued with empty rhetoric about getting rid of minimum wage and Somalian women doing porn. What does that have to do with taking out a loan?'"
It's okay to say that in hindsight, but I don't think that's true, myself. People aren't taking out these loans for the fun of their health, they're not doing it for 50 inch televisions (although I'm not saying that doesn't happen to a small degree(. Mainly people take out these loans for the same reason a person opts to work in a sweatshop, because it's that or they lose their house, can't feed their family, can't manage for the time being.
For the most part, people who take out these loans are doing it for their survival. It is wishful thinking and it is stupid on their part, that's understood, but the reason people turn to such companies is to get by. Not too unlike people who work in sweatshops because that's their only means of eating and living for the time being.
I don't think anybody disputes that it's stupid to use companies like Provident, what the rest of us are saying is that while yes there is responsibility for those who take the loans, that doesn't excuse the company for preying on the vulnerable like a kettle of vultures. You seem to think it's some sort of dichotomy whereby you either support the company or you support reckless borrowing, the reality is that you can be against both.
The minimum wage and Somalian porn argument was made to demonstrate that people consenting/choosing doesn't mean the people/companies preying on them are right in what they're doing.
I thought my argument, while being highly debatable, was pretty clear. Obviously not.
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| Quote ="frank5613"They sell to anybody , they do not give a dam if they can afford it or not, they know the majority of people will not be able to pay back on time, thats why they are making a fortune of the vulnerable, not the minority who can pay back on time. How long was it that we declined sponsorship from a betting company, because it did not suit RLs image
if the company are so helpful watch BBC3 on wed, 10pb'"
And make sure you read the rebuttal from Provident on their website, rather than resort to listening to only one side of the argument.
Also, they don't "sell to anybody". You have to prove you're able to afford the repayments. However, the way some people prove their capability of being able to pay are questionable in themselves.
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| Quote ="Jeff the God of Biscuits"Why is it the companies fault, if a customer takes out a loan, knowing full well the APR, and the penalties involved, knowing full well they cannot repay it? Yes they do take advantage of people's desperation for Money, but, at the end of the day, it's your own responsibility to manage your money better.
I have a family, a mortgage, and work scarcely above minimum wage. It's a struggle, sometimes, but I would never take this loans out due to the rates involved. To blame Provident for offering a service because there is a demand for that service is utterly stupid.
Well done the Bulls, great deal this.'"
But it's not either or, and that's the point. Just because people recklessly borrow money, and need to be responsible for their own actions, doesn't mean that a company that preys on said people is excused for what they do.
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| I will watch the program, all the facts are supposedly filmed by some one working there, then we can decide for ourselves
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| Quote ="r a n c i d"But it's not either or, and that's the point. Just because people recklessly borrow money, and need to be responsible for their own actions, doesn't mean that a company that preys on said people is excused for what they do.'"
What do you mean "prey"
I'm pretty sure the person has to go to Provident and ask for the loan. Provident will then say yes we will give you the money but state CLEARLY if you do not pay it back you will be charge 4000%.
If that person signs anyway and can't afford the payment, as harsh as it is, that is their own fault. These vulnerable people have many other options to go to than a payday loan company.
Do you have a problem with Barclays pumping millions into the Premier league when they made people pay for a service without them knowing. Pretty sure that counts as theft or fraud. Do you refuse watch SKY sports which is owned by the same man at the centre of the phone hacking scandal. Do you also refuse to watch the BBC that is currently at accused of allowing many children to be abused?
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