WTF has philosophy got to do with anything?

Considering there isnt even an opposing hypothesis. Not even from one from someone as misguided and circular in thinking as you we can be confident in our results.

Unless of course you would like to further illuminate your stupidity, give us a bit of laugh and provide us with these alternative reasons for the increase in attendance for St Helens, Salford and Bradford from 2011 to 2012?

Sorry, I thought we were discussing the reasons for [ifalls[/i in attendances ?!? If I follow your argument, you're saying that the reason they've fallen is because they've previously risen. That makes it all OK then. Out of interest, how long does the falling-because-they-rose excuse last? Just the one season, or as long as you need it to?

has that only just sunk in? Bloody hell I outright said it numerous times.

They arent falling because they rose, they falling because the factors which led to an abnormal rise in 2012 arent applicable in 2013. The 2012 attendances were out of sync with trend towards steady growth of attendances. 2013 is in that trend when measured over the long term.

The fall in attendances is down to the unique factors, which caused a unique attendance figure being removed and attendances reverting to their long term trend for growth.

You seem to be using the fact 2013 didnt match a huge increase in 2012 which was our best year ever as a stick to beat them with.

Your logic would have a company which made £1m in year 1, £2m in year 2, £3m in year 3, £4m in year 4, £5m in year 5, £8m in year 6 because of a massive one off order, sacking the CEO because they only made £7m in year 7.

We dont need to start sacking people simply because we arent breaking records this year like we did last year.

If only your analogy was remotely accurate...(oh, for those growth rates). Even so, plenty CEOs get fired in exactly those circumstances, with a "thanks for doing your bit, but you're not the guy to take us the next stage".

Of course they do, keep clutching those straws.

You're a sucker? Not surprising, meet Billy behind the bike sheds after school!

You've obviously never run a business.

keep digging.

Oh Smokey, Smokey, Smokey. Why on earth do you waste your team trying to educate people who don't want to be educated. Leave them alone in their small, cosy ignorant world. You're obviously not taking their AGENDA into consideration. I'm with you

And this the real point of the thread. No one has tried to pretend that their hasn't been a fall, we tried putting some context and perspective to attendances because the figures (whilst dropped in SOME games) if you go back aren't all ''alarming''.

From Week 1
Leeds vs Hull got 2,000 more than last year......not alarming
Saints vs Hudds never broke the 10,000 mark at Knowsley Road in SL, it got 12,003 this year........not alarming
Bulls vs Wakey got 10,263, lower than '12 & '11, but also higher than 7,437 ('10) and 8,387 ('09)....not alarming
Wire vs Cas got 7,788 ('0icon_cool.gif and 8,202 ('09), it's now pushing close to the 11,000 mark (10,721).....not alarming

From Week 2
Wigan vs Wire got 15,537 ('0icon_cool.gif 13,452 ('09), it's topped 20,000 every year since then......not alarming
Wakey vs Hull KR got 3,000 more than it was getting 4/5 years ago......not alarming
Hull vs Bradford only got a few hundred less than in the last 2 years, this with it being postponed.....not alarming
Cas vs Leeds, average between '08-'12 was 8,897, this year got 9,103........not alarming
Catalan vs Salford got less than in '12 but it got over 1,700 more than it did in 2010......not alarming

From Week 3
Wire vs Catalans this is another Wire game that has become a 10,000+ game over the last few years....not alarming
Hudds vs Wigan would've done recent average if it hadn't been moved forward at late notice.....not alarming

From Week 4
Wakey vs Hudds did 3,000 more than in 2011......not alarming
Cas vs Catalans was up from last year and the year before that too.........not alarming
Hull vs Wire did as expected from a weekend night game between the two on tv.......not alarming

From Week 5
Saints vs Leeds still did very well minus the several hundred who got stuck in traffic.....not alarming
Widnes vs Hull did better than last year.........not alarming
Cas vs Wigan got 1,300 more than it did in '09..........not alarming

And I mentioned a LONG time ago on this thread (and you've finally accepted) things are more than likely to pick up in some cases (so no reason for alarm) (except maybe in the case of London I admit that)
Salford and Bradford should both pick up in the next few seasons
Widnes will probably increase
Hull will grow if they become genuine challengers
Hull KR have a new stand being built
Wakey are increasing numbers and have a new stadium in the works

Also other things to consider such as
Wigan have seen a drop in attendances this year, but then again for the last few years they came into the season as one of the top 2 favorites whilst this year many people have them as low as 4th or lower, this will impact ticket sales.
Winless in 3 at home, I don't expect Saints fans to be rushing for tickets for the next home game, or even to travel to the Wire this weekend.
One of SL's best potential attendance teams (Bradford) have had a shocking time, if they were still a top 4 team imagine the difference in crowds.

What percentage of the drop is in HOME fans? Due to travelling cost and from what I've heard/read about less fans willing to spend the petrol money on travelling do we get as many AWAY fans nowadays???
Are people saving money to attend several World Cup games this years??? If so, hardly a bad thing.
What are the differences in ticket prices/offers from clubs compared to past seasons???

Lets not pretend that the country on the whole is doing great financially. Businesses are going down the pan all the time and that is what SL clubs are 'businesses'......some might not like it and unrealistically be expecting more and more fans to be turning up but their's a lot of businesses out there (or gone bust) that wish they could say they were getting the same amount of customers as they were before Britain's finances went as ugly as Shaun Briscoe's nose.

This is what raising genuine issues really is.....not just looking at some lower figures and shaking your head.

Exactly, all good questions. AND there are other good questions that [imight[/i be within the power of people to do something about rather than your negative, defeatist attitude of "its all external, nothing we can do about it". You and Smokey are the most negative, pessimistic posters on here.

Other questions might indeed fairly include: "are people less interested in the regular season?" ( I don't know, it's not made a big difference to me personally, maybe it has to others. This assertion may well be W.Eve's 'agenda' but its not mine). You may well think that some people don't ask enough about the mitigating factors. Fine, but don't pretend there's any superiority in assuming it's [inever[/i due to anything else either.

You're back-tracking is more nonsensical than your original nonsense standpoint.

Unfortunately, I can't do anything about the fact that you're thick.

Hahaha you don't half read what you want to read do you and twist it just to try go on some incorrect offensive.

When have I said their is NOTHING we can do about it? Where did I say it's ALL external? What i've said is that it's no cause for panic or alarm and I stick by that. Myself and Smokey aren't negative or pessimistic......our knees just don't jerk like some others do.

And you're right, one question is ''are people less interested in the regular season''.......but that got asked, implied and even answered by many already (even before this particular thread started), so what's the point of repeating one question? I provided others, that some don't want to hear these other questions, that's not my fault.

I would also like to post a non sequitur

Jesus wept





Are attendances in SL up or down on last year? From the figures I have seen regarding 2013, the comp is currently averaging 9,082, down from 10,151 in 2012 and 9,615 in 2011.

As regards like for like games...... pretty pointless doing this until the 27 rounds are up......as for TV figures, unless you are going to take into account a multiple number of circumsatances like weather, other events, other channel scheduling etc, then again, it's pretty pointless comparing anything until the season is over.

Personally, I think once the weather gets better and United have tied up the title, attendances will creep back up......and having weekends of upsets like last week will only add to the lure of attending a SL game....

, are attendances of around 1,000 acceptable ?

This is rich coming from a self confessed 'stay-away' supporter of your club!

You've currently got clubs with 400 fans dictating the direction the championship goes in,so i would say 1000 is more than acceptable

But why am I no longer attending ?

the fact cas did even better in 2007 only serves to highlight the current problem with todays crowds. I don't know why you've suddenly moved on to P+R, i made no mention of it whatsoever. Does the fact Keighley were getting sub 400 crowds back in the 80's/90's, to crowds as high as 3727 in 2001 and now in the 800's not make you wonder what's going wrong in semi-pro rugby?

A similar scenario to SL and the Reserve / Dual contract fiasco

I'm just glad ive got miners & east to go watch when they finally ruin the pro game for me

There isnt really any point comparing 2011 to 2013 at this point because 2011 had the Magic Weekend as round 1, and there is still a game to be played in round 4 this year. So in answer to your question, regardless of anything, we couldnt possibly know until the 17th of July when round 4 is completed .

You did make mention of it. You compared it to the 'post-franchising' era. I mentioned it as a possible reason why Keighley's attendance were down, they have been relegated twice in that time, and gone bust again. That might effect their attendances.