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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Sinfield is superior to most NRL players as he is Super League players. As is anybody in, or talked about as serious contenders for the England squad, they would go there and be stars.
Probably not the best, but in the top 10-20% of players.
The best English players are among the best players in the world. Burgess, Ellis, Morley et al all prove it.'"
I realise you are on a gee up.
Not all teams are looking for a player like Sinfield for their team or would want a 32 year old utility player.
Pretty sure he would not take over Captaincy from many of the current Club Captains.
Just the concept that a player that is unfamiliar with the NRL and comes from another very different league would be made the leader and Captain is pretty unlikely in the real world.
I wish Kevin had tried his hand in the NRL when he was younger and in his prime, he would have done ok as a Hooker, not in the Halves. |
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| Quote ="Damo-Leeds"[size=150Fylde_Warrior's response is going to be very interesting [/sizeindeed now New Zealand and the super league connections have being bough into the debate.'"
I doubt it Damo, I doubt it! |
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| Quote ="Buggo"I realise you are on a gee up.
Not all teams are looking for a player like Sinfield for their team or would want a 32 year old utility player.
Pretty sure he would not take over Captaincy from many of the current Club Captains.
Just the concept that a player that is unfamiliar with the NRL and comes from another very different league would be made the leader and Captain is pretty unlikely in the real world.
I wish Kevin had tried his hand in the NRL when he was younger and in his prime, he would have done ok as a Hooker, not in the Halves.'"
I didn’t say Sinfield would go to every team, it would be a pretty pointless argument anyway.
Why would the Warriors or Manly or Souths or Bronco’s sign Billy Slater?
I said Sinfield was superior to most NRL players, he is. He is better than most halves and loose forwards in the NRL. As Tomkins would be among the best fullbacks, he wouldn’t go to the Warriors, Manly, Souths, Broncos or Storm because they have superior fullbacks, he would be an improvement on the rest. James Roby probably wouldn’t be wanted by Canterbury, Storm or Wests, he would be an improvement for everyone else.
The best of the NRL is, in most cases, but not all, better than our best. The rest of the NRL are inferior to our best. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I didn’t say Sinfield would go to every team, it would be a pretty pointless argument anyway.
Why would the Warriors or Manly or Souths or Bronco’s sign Billy Slater?
I said Sinfield was superior to most NRL players, he is. =#FF0000He is better than most halves and loose forwards in the NRL. As Tomkins would be among the best fullbacks, he wouldn’t go to the Warriors, Manly, Souths, Broncos or Storm because they have superior fullbacks, he would be an improvement on the rest. James Roby probably wouldn’t be wanted by Canterbury, Storm or Wests, he would be an improvement for everyone else.
The best of the NRL is, in most cases, but not all, better than our best. The rest of the NRL are inferior to our best.'"
Beverley Red posted
[iYou are a total idiot (in my opinion at least) Sinfield would walk into any NRL side & would be the captain to boot. [/i
My original point was responding to Beverley reds comments.
I do not agree with the comment you made in red but that is just my opinion.
His style may work in England, a Goal kicking Utility player, but it is not what is looked for in a Stand off in the NRL. (IMO) |
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| Quote ="Buggo"Beverley Red posted
[iYou are a total idiot (in my opinion at least) Sinfield would walk into any NRL side & would be the captain to boot. [/i
My original point was responding to Beverley reds comments.
I do not agree with the comment you made in red but that is just my opinion.
His style may work in England, a Goal kicking Utility player, but it is not what is looked for in a Stand off in the NRL. (IMO)'"
He would get in to pretty much any NRL side. I see no reason why you would make him captain or at the very least make part of a senior leadership team.
Sinfield isn’t a goal-kicking utility, he is a loose-forward or Stand-off, who, because of the multitude of skills he posses can cover at hooker. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"He would get in to pretty much any NRL side. =#FF00BFI see no reason why you would make him captain or at the very least make part of a senior leadership team.
[iIs this a typo?[/i
Sinfield isn’t a goal-kicking utility, he is a loose-forward or Stand-off, who, because of the multitude of skills he posses can cover at hooker.'"
Into an NRL side as a Stand Off? or Lock?
He is too slow to be a threat in the Halves especially at 32. |
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| Quote ="Buggo"Into an NRL side as a Stand Off? or Lock?
He is too slow to be a threat in the Halves especially at 32.'"
yes it was a typo, He would probably be a stand-off now, im not sure his body would be up to playing for as many minutes, as many times as he does in the pack anymore.
And nobody is 'too slow' for stand off, it isnt a pre-requisite of being a Stand-off. No position in RL is just a list of skills, success comes from blending those skills with others in the team
Wally Lewis wasnt blisteringly fast, Greg Bird isnt. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"yes it was a typo, He would probably be a stand-off now, im not sure his body would be up to playing for as many minutes, as many times as he does in the pack anymore.
And nobody is 'too slow' for stand off, it isnt a pre-requisite of being a Stand-off. No position in RL is just a list of skills, success comes from blending those skills with others in the team
Wally Lewis wasnt blisteringly fast, Greg Bird isnt.'"
But Bird has been in the pack for most of the last two seasons, as he has filled out he has hardly played Stand off, sure he did when he was younger and had acceleration.
Lewis was not as slow as many think, sure towards the end of his Career he had slowed down but he made plenty of breaks himself for most of his time in the game certainly broke the line often.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YHHS1M7iAw
If a Coach knows his team is facing a stand off that is unlikely to take on his opposite man with strength or speed he can set a game plan against that sort of player and cut off distribution to the backs.
Australia do this often to England where the backs see little or no ball. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"yes it was a typo, He would probably be a stand-off now, im not sure his body would be up to playing for as many minutes, as many times as he does in the pack anymore.
And nobody is 'too slow' for stand off, it isnt a pre-requisite of being a Stand-off. No position in RL is just a list of skills, success comes from blending those skills with others in the team
Wally Lewis wasnt blisteringly fast, Greg Bird isnt.'"
But Bird has been in the pack for most of the last two seasons, as he has filled out he has hardly played Stand off, sure he did when he was younger and had acceleration.
Lewis was not as slow as many think, sure towards the end of his Career he had slowed down but he made plenty of breaks himself for most of his time in the game certainly broke the line often.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YHHS1M7iAw
If a Coach knows his team is facing a stand off that is unlikely to take on his opposite man with strength or speed he can set a game plan against that sort of player and cut off distribution to the backs.
Australia do this often to England where the backs see little or no ball. | |
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Sinfields age is nothing to do with the argument, Last year he was outstanding & has been consistantly good all his carreer. I said he would walk into most NRL teams & would improve them with his leadership quality alone He would have had a long & glorious carreer if he had been in the NRL. As he has been at Leeds some people seem to think that that counts for little. Remember how Leeds were always the great overspending under achiving side as long as I have been involved in the game (50 years +) the fact that they are now champions five times in recent times is down to a great part in their leaders the most important of who is Sinfield. The fact he has not had succsess as an international is not his fault (the super stars from the south wouldn,t play this year) it is not his fault that (according to some) that the Aussies dont take the WCC seriously. As a HKR fan I would welcome him into our side with open arms even at 32 as weould most clubs if he decided to change clubs. I hope he has one last moment of glory & lifts the world cup. As with other fans this year we will look at the Leeds team sheet & will get that extra lift if he is not playing (not that wish harm ti him) he is that good.
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Quote ="Buggo"But Bird has been in the pack for most of the last two seasons, as he has filled out he has hardly played Stand off, sure he did when he was younger and had acceleration.
Lewis was not as slow as many think, sure towards the end of his Career he had slowed down but he made plenty of breaks himself for most of his time in the game certainly broke the line often.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YHHS1M7iAw
If a Coach knows his team is facing a stand off that is unlikely to take on his opposite man with strength or speed he can set a game plan against that sort of player and cut off distribution to the backs.
Australia do this often to England where the backs see little or no ball.'"
Yet we have tried primarily running stand-offs and that hasn’t worked either. If a coach knows a player is primarily a running stand-off then he can plan for that aswell. That is why we need to focus on combinations instead of individuals. There is no reason that Tomkins from fullback cant provide the speed in the halves. There is no reason we couldn’t, accommodate 5 creative players on the pitch for a period of time. With Sinfield or Roby defending at Loose for a period, with Burrow at hooker, Tomkins pushed forward and Hardaker/Widdop at fullback. Giving a huge amount of options, Burrow and Roby able to make metres around the ruck bringing the defence into the middle, Sinfield and Burrow/Roby able to get it wide to Tomkins and Hardaker/Widdop chiming into the line, as the extra pivot. Having one of these combinations at either side of the ruck means a defence cant slide as easily, and needed to cover the middle. Obviously there is the defensive side of things with having all 5 of those players not being the strongest defenders, but a big starting pack of Graham, Roby, Morley, Ellis, Westwood, Burgess and 3 forwards like Hock, Crabtree, JJB/Ablett/Hill doing lots in lots of short stints should be able to cover for that. |
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Quote ="Buggo"But Bird has been in the pack for most of the last two seasons, as he has filled out he has hardly played Stand off, sure he did when he was younger and had acceleration.
Lewis was not as slow as many think, sure towards the end of his Career he had slowed down but he made plenty of breaks himself for most of his time in the game certainly broke the line often.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YHHS1M7iAw
If a Coach knows his team is facing a stand off that is unlikely to take on his opposite man with strength or speed he can set a game plan against that sort of player and cut off distribution to the backs.
Australia do this often to England where the backs see little or no ball.'"
Yet we have tried primarily running stand-offs and that hasn’t worked either. If a coach knows a player is primarily a running stand-off then he can plan for that aswell. That is why we need to focus on combinations instead of individuals. There is no reason that Tomkins from fullback cant provide the speed in the halves. There is no reason we couldn’t, accommodate 5 creative players on the pitch for a period of time. With Sinfield or Roby defending at Loose for a period, with Burrow at hooker, Tomkins pushed forward and Hardaker/Widdop at fullback. Giving a huge amount of options, Burrow and Roby able to make metres around the ruck bringing the defence into the middle, Sinfield and Burrow/Roby able to get it wide to Tomkins and Hardaker/Widdop chiming into the line, as the extra pivot. Having one of these combinations at either side of the ruck means a defence cant slide as easily, and needed to cover the middle. Obviously there is the defensive side of things with having all 5 of those players not being the strongest defenders, but a big starting pack of Graham, Roby, Morley, Ellis, Westwood, Burgess and 3 forwards like Hock, Crabtree, JJB/Ablett/Hill doing lots in lots of short stints should be able to cover for that. | |
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| Quote ="Beverley red"Sinfields age is nothing to do with the argument, Last year he was outstanding & has been consistantly good all his carreer. I said he would walk into most NRL teams & would improve them with his leadership quality alone He would have had a long & glorious carreer if he had been in the NRL. As he has been at Leeds some people seem to think that that counts for little. Remember how Leeds were always the great overspending under achiving side as long as I have been involved in the game (50 years +) the fact that they are now champions five times in recent times is down to a great part in their leaders the most important of who is Sinfield. =#FF0040The fact he has not had succsess as an international is not his fault (the super stars from the south wouldn,t play this year) it is not his fault that (according to some) that the Aussies dont take the WCC seriously. As a HKR fan I would welcome him into our side with open arms even at 32 as weould most clubs if he decided to change clubs. I hope he has one last moment of glory & lifts the world cup. As with other fans this year we will look at the Leeds team sheet & will get that extra lift if he is not playing (not that wish harm ti him) he is that good.'"
You are entitled to your opinion Beverly Red.
The one thing I will mention is the highlighted text.
The "superstars" from down south did play last year, Australia played the World Champions twice as I recall.
Is it Englands god given right that Australia come to England to play? or host England by themselves in a series that may well lose money?
In or around the last decade Australia has hosted two Test series compared to England's four home series, hardly an even effort is it?
As for the WCC it is a pre season warm up that the Australians are contractually obliged to play, they are hardly going to say to the media they are not really interested in a one sided biased event that they don't really rate are they? |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Yet we have tried primarily running stand-offs and that hasn’t worked either. If a coach knows a player is primarily a running stand-off then he can plan for that aswell. That is why we need to focus on combinations instead of individuals. There is no reason that Tomkins from fullback cant provide the speed in the halves. There is no reason we couldn’t, accommodate 5 creative players on the pitch for a period of time. With Sinfield or Roby defending at Loose for a period, with Burrow at hooker, Tomkins pushed forward and Hardaker/Widdop at fullback. Giving a huge amount of options, Burrow and Roby able to make metres around the ruck bringing the defence into the middle, Sinfield and Burrow/Roby able to get it wide to Tomkins and Hardaker/Widdop chiming into the line, as the extra pivot. Having one of these combinations at either side of the ruck means a defence cant slide as easily, and needed to cover the middle. Obviously there is the defensive side of things with having all 5 of those players not being the strongest defenders, but a big starting pack of Graham, Roby, Morley, Ellis, Westwood, Burgess and 3 forwards like Hock, Crabtree, JJB/Ablett/Hill doing lots in lots of short stints should be able to cover for that.'"
Most of those players have been in the team for some time and they have not come close against Australia though.
You need a stand off that can run himself OR link up, not one or the other, that is what make defences question their options, if you can not offer a threat to the line yourself say as Thurston does then you are limited and you limit your team outside of you.
I would like Tomkins at Stand off to be honest, he would have the defences in two minds and bring them out of the line. |
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| Quote ="Buggo"Most of those players have been in the team for some time and they have not come close against Australia though.
You need a stand off that can run himself OR link up, not one or the other, that is what make defences question their options, if you can not offer a threat to the line yourself say as Thurston does then you are limited and you limit your team outside of you.
I would like Tomkins at Stand off to be honest, he would have the defences in two minds and bring them out of the line.'"
But Tomkins couldnt organise the team to anywhere near an acceptable level and remove any kind of decent kicking game from the team unless you were to put in someone like Brough, who has more downsides to his game and isnt as good at organising or kicking as Sinfield is.
There are positives and negatives to whoever you pick, and we are picking a team not a list of individuals. It doesnt matter if Sinfield doesnt have the speed if someone else does, like it doesnt matter if Tomkins doesnt have the kicking Skills or organisation skills if someone else does. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"But Tomkins couldnt organise the team to anywhere near an acceptable level and remove any kind of decent kicking game from the team unless you were to put in someone like Brough, who has more downsides to his game and isnt as good at organising or kicking as Sinfield is.
There are positives and negatives to whoever you pick, and we are picking a team not a list of individuals. It doesnt matter if Sinfield doesnt have the speed if someone else does, like it doesnt matter if Tomkins doesnt have the kicking Skills or organisation skills if someone else does.'"
Put Sinfield at Lock or Hooker then, he probably played his best Tests at Hooker, Roby could come off the bench.
Half back and Standoff are the lynchpins in a game, all great teams have had champion halves that wielded the team around.
Ok Hookers and Fullbacks are important too in a different way, you rarely see a top team that does not have great halves. Its been an area lacking in England's game for a long time, England's halves have never been man for man as good as Australia's for what feels like an eternity.
Those positions decide the big games and it is no coincidence that the Halves are the players that win most awards and MOM etc,
Kevin does a great job at Leeds but the intensity week in week out and quality of more than half of the opposition in SL makes him appear more capable than he is compared to the best Halves in the World.
That's just my two bob. |
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| Quote ="Buggo"Put Sinfield at Lock or Hooker then, he probably played his best Tests at Hooker, Roby could come off the bench.
Half back and Standoff are the lynchpins in a game, all great teams have had champion halves that wielded the team around.
Ok Hookers and Fullbacks are important too in a different way, you rarely see a top team that does not have great halves. Its been an area lacking in England's game for a long time, England's halves have never been man for man as good as Australia's for what feels like an eternity.
Those positions decide the big games and it is no coincidence that the Halves are the players that win most awards and MOM etc,
Kevin does a great job at Leeds but the intensity week in week out and quality of more than half of the opposition in SL makes him appear more capable than he is compared to the best Halves in the World.
That's just my two bob.'"
Put him where ever you want, a position is only a name, Sinfield is still going o do what he does, call Tomkins a prop, he is still only going to do what Tomkins does. |
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Seem to think a certain Jason Smith did rather well in the NRL with Canberra after finishing with Hull at the age of 33 (finished at the Cowboys at almost 36.) He wasn't fast or mobile & a bit overweight as well as still a bit crocked from injuries so could only do 40 mins a game max. Whilst at their best I'd have JS anytime over Sinfield, Sinfield is not too disimilar and would command a role in many NRL sides.
That he may not get into all sides is moot, his influence on games not just in his rugby play are there to see.
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| Quote ="Beverley red"The fact he has not had succsess as an international is not his fault (the super stars from the south wouldn,t play this year)'"
Who'se fault was it when the super stars of the south did play us?
[uSinfield's International Record V Australia[/u
Oct 28 2000 LOST - England 2 Australia 22
Nov 11 2001 WON - GB 20 Australia 12
Nov 17 2001 LOST - GB 12 Australia 40
Nov 24 2001 LOST - GB 8 Australia 28
Jul 12 2002 LOST - Australia 64 GB 10
Nov 15 2003 LOST - GB 20 Australia 23
Nov 22 2003 LOST - GB 12 Australia 18
Nov 6 2005 LOST - GB 6 Australia 20
Nov 19 2005 LOST - GB 14 Australia 26
Nov 2 2008 LOST - Australia 52 England 4
Oct 31 2009 LOST - England 16 Australia 26
Nov 14 2009 LOST - England 16 Australia 46
Nov 5 2011 LOST - England 20 Australia 36
Nov 12 2011 LOST - England 8 Australia 30 |
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I think anybody who wanted to say a loss was somebody’s ‘fault’ would be showing a pretty poor understanding of international sport.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Who'se fault was it when the super stars of the south did play us?
[uSinfield's International Record V Australia[/u
Oct 28 2000 LOST - England 2 Australia 22
Nov 11 2001 WON - GB 20 Australia 12
Nov 17 2001 LOST - GB 12 Australia 40
Nov 24 2001 LOST - GB 8 Australia 28
Jul 12 2002 LOST - Australia 64 GB 10
Nov 15 2003 LOST - GB 20 Australia 23
Nov 22 2003 LOST - GB 12 Australia 18
Nov 6 2005 LOST - GB 6 Australia 20
Nov 19 2005 LOST - GB 14 Australia 26
Nov 2 2008 LOST - Australia 52 England 4
Oct 31 2009 LOST - England 16 Australia 26
Nov 14 2009 LOST - England 16 Australia 46
Nov 5 2011 LOST - England 20 Australia 36
Nov 12 2011 LOST - England 8 Australia 30'"
Did he play on his own against them, no wonder he lost that many.
How many has NRL legends Adrian Morley, Sam Burgess and Gareth Ellis won against the Aussies? |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I think anybody who wanted to say a loss was somebody’s ‘fault’ would be showing a pretty poor understanding of international sport.'"
I think anybody who wanted to imply that Sinfield was deprived of international success in 2012 because the superstars of the south wouldn't play would be showing not only a pretty poor understanding of international sport, but also of Sinfield's less than enviable international historical record and lack of credibility as a player at that level. |
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| Quote ="christopher"Did he play on his own against them, no wonder he lost that many.'"
Did Sinfield play on his own for the Leeds Rhinos? No wonder they've won that many SL titles from 5th 
Care to list all those international performances by Sinfield against Australia where he's demonstrated any world class qualities at that level which may warrant the awarding of the Golden Boot best player in the world award at any time? An award which incidentally places "particular emphasis on performances at international level"... or at least it used to do.
Quote ="christopher"How many has NRL legends Adrian Morley, Sam Burgess and Gareth Ellis won against the Aussies?'"
3, 0 and 2 times respectively, but I'm not aware of any of those players ever being awarded the Golden Boot best player in the world award either  |
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| Quote ="William Eve"I think anybody who wanted to imply that Sinfield was deprived of international success in 2012 because the superstars of the south wouldn't play would be showing not only a pretty poor understanding of international sport, but also of Sinfield's less than enviable international historical record and lack of credibility as a player at that level.'"
His international credibility is a subjective opinion, yours is he lacks it. Most people would probably think that your opinion lacks credibility, especially the corner you have painted yourself into regarding England and Leeds Rhino’s especially has led to some fairly incredulous opinions that you have put forth. But both my opinion on your credibility and yours on Kevin Sinfields are irrelevant because it is impossible to say what would have happened because they didn’t play, it is unarguable fact, that Australia’s decision not to play, and the disappointingly potical proposal from NZ did deprive Kevin Sinfield of the opportunity for international success against the major southern hemisphere sides and as such it is clearly correct to say that it wasn’t his fault he didn’t have success against those nations this year.
Sinfield did experience international success this year by the way. The international game doesn’t start and stop with the Australians, however much they, and their fanboys believe it does. |
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| Quote ="William Eve"Did Sinfield play on his own for the Leeds Rhinos? No wonder they've won that many SL titles from 5th
Care to list all those international performances by Sinfield against Australia where he's demonstrated any world class qualities at that level which may warrant the awarding of the Golden Boot best player in the world award at any time? An award which incidentally places "particular emphasis on performances at international level"... or at least it used to do.
3, 0 and 2 times respectively, but I'm not aware of any of those players ever being awarded the Golden Boot best player in the world award either
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So you think the 2012 Golden Boot winner should be based on previous years games and results? strange. |
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| Quote ="William Eve"I think anybody who wanted to imply that Sinfield was deprived of international success in 2012 because the superstars of the south wouldn't play would be showing not only a pretty poor understanding of international sport, but also of Sinfield's less than enviable international historical record and lack of credibility as a player at that level.'"
Perhaps he was denied. He's won MOM the last two times England have played New Zealand over here. If we could've had a 3 game England vs NZ series their's a good chance he might have been Man of the Series. |
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Perhaps he was denied. He's won MOM the last two times England have played New Zealand over here. If we could've had a 3 game England vs NZ series their's a good chance he might have been Man of the Series.'"
Who awarded him Man of the Match in the game played in England? |
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