I'd suggest they are peeved that their best opportunity of getting the game going in their region has gone tits up.

There aren't people dancing on the coffin of the Crusaders there are people pointing out that it was a poor decision to go with them in the first place and it was. What didn't help matters is that they were ridiculed for even suggesting this for months and months. I personally find it massively frustrating that they looked to have blown an opportunity that if handled well could have worked.

Don't try and blame the doubters for this one.

Great post. We need more people like you in RL.

I know the development officers well (as you'd expect), and I know they simnply don't have the capacity to run individual school sides. The RU guy was attached to a RU club, but funded from the RFU and accessing their cash. It's a brighter story for us out in West London around Quins, where the RL development officers are based and can spend more time doing stuff (rather than travelling half a day to visit east London). That's quite a good indication of why a pro club is important for expansion. It provides a focus and a base for everything else.

The union guy said to the girls, in front of me, that he coached "proper" rugby. One of the girls asked me why we don't play RU. I said that if I wanted to be that bored, I'd teach maths.

If it rains you'll get wet. This has about as much relevance as your statement.



Brave of you to admit. I salute you.



Your devotion to RL is admirable.



However your sweeping generalisations are not.

Why make up such nonsense. No one is:

Gloating over the difficulties of the Crusaders
Salivating over the prospect of Quins following
Demanding a retreat to the M62
Dancing on the coffin of Crusaders
Jubilant that members of their own sporting family are dying

You made all that up! Because it doesn't suit your aganda that there actually may be other ways to expand that do not demand rushing clubs into SL built on foundations of sand. An opinion shared by NRL chief executive David Gallop!

You sir are a Drama queen and a hypocrite.

If you genuinely read all these threads on Crusaders and expansion and didn't see anyone, at any point, expressing any views to this effect, then I put it to you, while we're adopting 19th Century duelling language, that you cannot read, or you are intellectually incapable of understanding what you can.

Now we can go on cutting and pasting choice quotes, either in or out of context, for a few pages if you like, and turn this into one of those threads which nobody ever bothers to read again, because it's so far up its own backside that it's disappeared, or we can simply accept that our worldviews, and our understanding of English, are so different that we may as well be speaking different languages, and we can both continue to wish heartily that the other was supporting a different sport.

If you do wish to continue, then I would suggest you provide a quote from me which states that I believe there is an infallible blueprint for expansion. Because you rather strongly imply that I do. And that would be a lie which rather proves my point about you not understanding posts.

There may be some posters who have said I told you so, or something along those lines. The vast majority of people commenting on these threads do not jump up and down with glee at the prospect of the Crusaders or any other RL club struggling.



Choice quotes! If you don't want to be quoted, don't invent things like:

Gloating over the difficulties of the Crusaders
Salivating over the prospect of Quins following
Demanding a retreat to the M62
Dancing on the coffin of Crusaders
Jubilant that members of their own sporting family are dying

Perhaps you can point to the posts that you draw these conclusions from? Don't bother, they're not there, you made them up.



Will this do?



This implies to me that you see this as an infallible blueprint for expansion. Strange then that you describe your frustration at the prospect of the RU coach about to poach the players from your school. This seems a bit of a contradiction but then my understanding of English is limited.

The NRL chief executive also seems to disagree with your position regarding the best way for RL to expand.

thats actually very funny

what, are widnes going broke again?

RLis underfunded because it is mainly full of heartland clubs who have failed to develop properly.

if the heartlands wasnt so weak expansion would have more chance of succeeding.

when clubs have been around for over 100 years and cant get crowds of more than 2000 they are a waste of space.

RL is crying out for more clubs like wigan and leeds.

unfortunately all it gets are clubs like leigh, keighley, wakey, whitehaven etc. etc. etc.

Been here before havent we , so please tell us where are these clubs like Leeds and W1g4n ?

Also the clubs like Leigh,Keighleyand Whitehaven are not realistically looking to enter SL , so your point is what ? , they should just pack in ?

their fans should stop commenting on expansion of the game then shouldnt they

if these clubs have no realistic way of adding to RL in england by being strong clubs that can add to the pool of potential SL clubs, all they are doing is taking scarce funds away from the RFL to live a comatose existence.

ill repeat if SL was full of strong heartland clubs, the base for expansion would be much stronger. so im asking why have so many heartland clubs failed to develop properly over 100 + years?

You mean me ?

Who will this [ipool of potential SL clubs [/iplay if these comatose clubs pack in then ? It'd be a pretty dull league with 3 teams in it.

If you think that sentence is an infallible blueprint for expansion, then your understanding of English really is a very long way from anyone's I've ever met.

Can you really not see the difference between wanting to expand, and the method by which one does ? I'm quite happy to stand by a statement that says that I want RL to expand as far as it can as fast as it can. But the mthod by which one does that is precisely what is for debate.

As for your last point about the RU coach, I've read it twice and I still don't have any idea what point you're making.

On the Gallop point, all you're actually doing is saying that the RFL must be wrong because they tried something you disagreed with, but Gallop must be right because he says something you do agree with. As an point of argument, it's meaningless. Why would Gallop be any more prescient than Lewis ? Does the fact that a RL administrator says something mean that it's the word of God ? Really, after a century of some of the worst administration in sport, are you really saying that the fact that a RL administrator is currently taking the view that it's best to avoid any expansion means that is in fact the case ?

In which case, you might like some more Gallop quotes on the issue of why he doesn't want new teams elsewhere :

[i''It's highly advantageous for us in the competition for athletes that we can tell local kids they never have to leave their family and friends,'' he said.....''There is an increasing trend for youngsters to stay at home at age 18, and mothers like that."[/i

Ok, Dave, you've convinced me. The logic behind your desire to bury your head in the sand while the AFL set up shop in your back yard is flawless.

Here's another quote :

[i''There are obviously target areas we have our eye on - Central Coast, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide and perhaps another team in New Zealand,'' he said. ''I think PNG is, quite frankly, a fair way off but our timeline now is to wait until the middle of 2011 before we have a real serious look at expansion again and whether it is the right thing for our competition.''[/i

Oh, hang on. Good grief ! The man must be schizophrenic. Maybe it's a different Gallop, and the other one was abducted by aliens ? What a mystery. Yet, if as you say the fact that Gallop says something means it must be right, then which of these are we to believe ? The one about how RL should expand to every major population centre in the south seas, or the one about let's not play the game more than ten minutes from Sydney's teenage boys' bedrooms ?

You've started off on the wrong foot. I don't believe in expansion at all costs. I don't believe, for example, that plonking a team on a point in the map would work because you need sufficient population and economic activity to support any pro club. I don't believe in wasting time in Liverpool or Glasgow because they're soccer-saturated cities. I don't believe in putting teams where there is no guaranteed moneyman as a backer. But I also don't believe that what's happened at Crusaders means that we should never try anything similar again. If you really think that's such a fantastic unrealistic opinion, then I can only suggest you give up now, because we'll never agree, and I'll never think you're right. But you're currently trying to accuse me of views I don't hold, and as your rather poor failure to provide "evidence" of my apparent view that there is an infallible blueprint for expansion shows, it's rather hard to do that.

It seems to suggest that you consider it a bad thing, it's not my understanding of English at fault, it's your ability to make a clear point.

What exactly are you saying?



Well congratulations! That's exactly what I've been arguing.

Lets not p[iiss[/i about for another 100 years Dally - in order to give Rugby League an immediate shot in the arm, please list the heartland clubs in SL who should pack in and fold now. Which non-heartland clubs (feel free to make them up if they don't exist) should immediately replace them?

I didn't start off on the wrong foot, YOU took issue with a quote I posted by Gallop.

What you've put there is pretty much what I've been saying, so what on earth is:

Gloating over the difficulties of the Crusaders
Salivating over the prospect of Quins following
Demanding a retreat to the M62
Dancing on the coffin of Crusaders
Jubilant that members of their own sporting family are dying

all about?

The RU coach if he's following the same pattern that the RFU have been using for nearly 10 years will have your players down to the kids section of the local RU club. That is the sole reason he is there.

That club will have had a grant from Sport England for junior development to fund the guy going into schools and run some sort of festival which will include them and other local schools. At which they'll be encouraged to join the local RU club.

Why can't you get coaches from the local RL kids section down?

If I can interject on that. Whether you like it or not or whether you think you are doing this or not this is the impression that many people involved in RL outside the heartlands are given. The sheer level of criticism pumped out about expansion and expansion clubs can be truly depressing to those of us who have put both time and money into the game over the years down here. I am sure that there can be few people more aware of the game's shortcomings here than people who are actually involved in it down here, but there appears to be a continual call for us to justify ourselves in some way.

One of Rugby League's strengths is that it is self critical, but the level of criticism is disproportionate. Now you might say that people do raise issues over the promises made by certain clubs over their stadiums, over the number of Antipodians in heartlands teams, over certain clubs crowds and over financial problems at some championship sides, but if you look at the sheer number of posts in comparison to when Quins, Crusaders or other expansion issues are raised, it is significently less. Just a look on the front page of VT at the moment proves that. Any one would think the garden is rosy in the heartlands. For instance Gatehead's reccent problems were much discussed, but where is the thread on Keighley?

I was involved myself in a failed amateur club, which even now a few years after its demise is still regularly criticised particularly on the other RL forum and of late in Rugby League World too, invariably by people with absolutely no knowledge of the actual facts. I am not happy that the club failed but I and a number of people I greatly admire gave up considerable time, effort and hard earned money attempting to spread the game we love. As such to still be reading criticism/lies from within the RL "family" years later saddens me and at the same time I wonder could it be that no amateur club in the north has stopped over the same period. Has there been a 100% retention rate?

Then if one looks at the posts themselves (forgetting those that say RL has been tried in Wales/London and has failed and should never be tried again which you rather disingenuously claim never to have seen - check this week's League Express' letter page if you need to see some) so many appear to be along the lines of "we told you so" (which apparently isn't gloating) or "you are an embarrassment to rugby league". It appears to me that there are a considerable number of people who just can't wait until the next problem arises in expansion areas to put in their twopennoth.

You no doubt will say this is constructive criticism but from where I'm sitting it isn't.

no clubs should pack it in.

heartland clubs have to try harder

fans of failed heartland clubs should blame their own clubs more for the problems RL faces rather than expansion clubs.

like ive said before, every expansion thread is dotted with fans from these failed clubs blaming expansion clubs. my reply is look in your own backyard

taking out cas and wakey, every other heartland club in SL is making massive strides to becoming "good SL clubs". cas arent too far away either.

i consider salford an expansion club.

as an example take either Huddersfield or Hull KR as heartland clubs thatve made a lot of progress.

as for failures, look at any heartland club in NL1 or 2 except widnes

The "local" RL Kids' section is about 2 hours away on a weekend, and longer on a weekday. I know some people think that because Quins exist in Twickenham, they must cover the whole of London, but nobody who lives in London believes Twickenham is local to Bromley.

Yes indeed a festival has been organised to take place at our school early in the new year, after which there will be an assessment of the potential, apparently. I will be trying to arrange an away fixture for the RL girls on the same day, naturally.

People may (and are entitled) to have the opinion that "RL has been tried in Wales/London and has failed and should never be tried again" It's shortsighted and absurd, but still an opinion they are entitled to hold. Some may say "we told you so" in this case it is not so much gloating as more and more a statement of fact, notwithstanding that the future of the Crusaders is still to be determined.

What I claim not to have seen is evidence of:

Gloating over the difficulties of the Crusaders
Salivating over the prospect of Quins following
Demanding a retreat to the M62
Dancing on the coffin of Crusaders
Jubilant that members of their own sporting family are dying

How could any of what you say you have experienced be described as constructive criticism, it is clearly not, nor would I claim it to be, so please don't put words into my mouth.

If you care to read any posts I have made on expansion you will find that I support expansion of the game, in terms of participation, spectators and geographically. You will also observe that I think the Crusaders have been let down badly by the RFL and should have had an awfull lot more support, do you disagree with this?

My approach to expanding the game would be very different to the creation of satellite SL clubs, which on the evidence so far seems not to work very well or is it a raging success, you tell me. Would you rather have new SL clubs given the best possible chance to succeed or have the next one cut loose in the same way the Crusaders have been? Because that doesn't help anyone, does it?

My friend, without a local kids section to sign these players up to, whatever work you have done or what anyone else may do in the future is so much p!ssing into the wind.

I can see now why you are so frustrated but without local RL clubs and games on a weekend it doesn't matter how many kids play the game in school anywhere, the ones that continue on to play open age will amount to the square root of f*ck all.