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| Quote ="justthebasicfax"Those Barmy bar stewards at Red Hall may have fooled some, but not all.
Bradford, and other clubs have been stupid, however...
The RFL don't get out of this that easy, licensing, grading, auditing, buying leases or freeholds, propping up franchises, Sponsorship deals that beggar belief, destroying GB and Ashes series, removing the competitive essence of sport.
They have had a play, now leave the dam sport alone.'"
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| Quote ="PopTart"and we'd have less games with less annual income.....'"
Initially yes, but wouldn't the product be better with some of the lower end teams gone. The quality players will be more evenly distibuted, this will improve the product as a spectacle, with more high intensity matches we may be able to win the World Cup or 4 nations. More exposure more money and the cycle continues. Once the national team wins something the exposure comes in you only need to look at RU after 2003 and cricket after 2005 to see this. | | | |
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"Reduce salary cap to 1.2 million. Would solve the financial problems for most clubs overnight.
20 players avg 60k each, sorted.'"
Except that loads of the better players would go to Union or Australia, and while noble fans such as yourself would still go to watch League, those fair-weather fans like me and many others would be less interested in low level rugby and go do something else at the weekend. "Good riddance" I hear you say, "we don't need your sort".
...but sponsors would then be even *less* interested, gates would drop too, TV would start switch off and so would income. In two seasons, you'd be on here again asking that we reduce the cap to £500k, as the sport races to amateurism.
It's the same 'myth of cuts' that the Tories are taking us to the doldrums with. | | |
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| Quote ="RLBandit"Except that loads of the better players would go to Union or Australia, and while noble fans such as yourself would still go to watch League, those fair-weather fans like me and many others would be less interested in low level rugby and go do something else at the weekend. "Good riddance" I hear you say, "we don't need your sort".
...but sponsors would then be even *less* interested, gates would drop too, TV would start switch off and so would income. In two seasons, you'd be on here again asking that we reduce the cap to £500k, as the sport races to amateurism.
It's the same 'myth of cuts' that the Tories are taking us to the doldrums with.'"
Agreed. | | |
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| Quote ="Hopie"A 14 team league where the teams at the top rest their better players against the teams at the bottom because league games don't really matter?'"
This. | | | |
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| Quote ="RLBandit"Except that loads of the better players would go to Union or Australia, and while noble fans such as yourself would still go to watch League, those fair-weather fans like me and many others would be less interested in low level rugby and go do something else at the weekend. "Good riddance" I hear you say, "we don't need your sort".
...but sponsors would then be even *less* interested, gates would drop too, TV would start switch off and so would income. In two seasons, you'd be on here again asking that we reduce the cap to £500k, as the sport races to amateurism.
It's the same 'myth of cuts' that the Tories are taking us to the doldrums with.'"
Dont agree. Sky needs league to fill a hole. Dont forget the hard times people are having, if sky dropped league I would drop my sky package. They value league as it has replaced monday night football. | | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Because the decisions are not left to disgruntled Keighley fans carrying Titanic-sized chips on their shoulders?'"
So all pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than others or alternatively " Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of big clubs".
Well, in my opinion, there will be more than me disgruntled of you are allowed back in SL in contravention of all rules and regulations. Other clubs looking to be in the top level will say " Why should we have to comply with the rules when Bradford don't" and when SL reply, " Because we say so" then law suits might start flying.
Were Rangers given the boot from the SPL by disgruntled Partick fans. I don't think so. It was a bit higher than that.
Then there is the Crusaders precedent and the London welsh precedent. Rules is rules but not for the Bulls. You had better hope you are right. | | |
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My team are one of the few who a) own their own ground and b) don't have a sugar daddy. As such we should be an example to which others aspire, yet because of the obsession with shiny stadiums required to meet the franchise criteria, and our inability to compete with other clubs wrt squad size and quality because we lack a backer with deep pockets we are in a sorry state.
Funny old world...
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| Quote ="ExiledTiger"My team are one of the few who a) own their own ground and b) don't have a sugar daddy. As such we should be an example to which others aspire, yet because of the obsession with shiny stadiums required to meet the franchise criteria, and our inability to compete with other clubs wrt squad size and quality because we lack a backer with deep pockets we are in a sorry state.
Funny old world...'"
Most of the people who rail against "shiny stadiums" don't have one. The costs involved in keeping going a tumbledown stadium and the image they give to the sport make new stadiums a very good acquisition.
I'm fed up of people going on about the charm of old stadiums. It's a myth. Standing in urine in the toilets and standing on moss covered terraces struggling to see the game is not my idea of a good night out. | | |
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How can clubs be overspending on players?
The cap hasn't been raised since it was brought in. Inflation has already eroded it by more than 30%.
The real problem is the failure of clubs to increase their revenue, despite new stadiums and apparently good TV deals.
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| Quote ="Deano G"How can clubs be overspending on players?
The cap hasn't been raised since it was brought in. Inflation has already eroded it by more than 30%.
The real problem is the failure of clubs to increase their revenue, despite new stadiums and apparently good TV deals.'"
As I said, they are more interested in finding ways to spend more money ( beating the SC ) than finding ways to make more money | | | |
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| Quote ="Deano G"...The real problem is the failure of clubs to increase their revenue, despite new stadiums and apparently good TV deals.'"
The real problem is, despite what many of the posters on here believe, is that RL is popular in the UK ONLY in small pockets along the M62 corridor and Cumbria that cannot afford to fund a full time league. | | |
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"The real problem is, despite what many of the posters on here believe, is that RL is popular in the UK ONLY in small pockets along the M62 corridor and Cumbria that cannot afford to fund a full time league.'"
There are more than enough people within the areas RL is played to finance a FT league | | |
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"The real problem is, despite what many of the posters on here believe, is that RL is popular in the UK ONLY in small pockets along the M62 corridor and Cumbria that cannot afford to fund a full time league.'"
10,000 averahe fans at home games + residual spends, combined with TV cash is 5,000,000 quid a year.......that should be the business model that clubs are tasked with achieving.
One of the points of Franchising was that they wouldn't waste money that could be spent on achieving this trying to stave off relegation...all that's happened is clubs have continued to spend money on players and neglect the important stuff.
London have wasted the cap this year.....and spent nothing on attracting fans.....HKA have wasted cash on average Aussies since they came up, Bradford wasted cash on players and cut prices.....that's ending well.....Wakey and Castlerford are chasing the new stadium dream, salford are still 4k short of where thye wanted/neede/expected to be fan wise.....
I am all for Franchises and no P&R, but only if it's for the benefit of the sport....currently, it's for the benefit of the SL clubs currently at the top table......kind of reminds me of the reasons for an earlier split in the code..... | | |
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HKR have spent significant amounts rebuilding their jnr programme over the last 5 years (now starting to have something to show for it) have extended the east stand, relaid the pitch, upgraded lights, building a new nth stand etc etc. to suggest all clubs are not trying to become more self sufficient is rubbish.
Reality is salary cap is currently set about 250-300 k more than 75% of clubs can afford.
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| Quote ="gutterfax"10,000 averahe fans at home games + residual spends, combined with TV cash is 5,000,000 quid a year.......that should be the business model that clubs are tasked with achieving......'"
I should have said @cannot afford a FT league at current salary levels.' | | |
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| Quote ="Starbug"There are more than enough people within the areas RL is played to finance a FT league'"
Only if enough of them are interested in RL. Quite clearly there aren't.
You've personally stated that there aren't in Leigh, which is pretty much a hotbed for the game. Same for Huddersfield, the Wakefield MDC, Halifax, South Yorkshire, Manchester, York, Cumbria.......
I'm afraid until people accept this, the game will never grow as it will continue to overstretch and not set itself realistic 'expansion' targets. | | |
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We are a great example of the problem at the moment (HKR). On field we have done ok since coming up, off field our crowd avg's are higher than anytime in our modern history, yet we are still losing 300k a year. Taking our crowd avg from 8k to 10k will cover that loss but it has taken a long time to get the investments needed to develop the ground to give us that opportunity. Still no guarantee with the new stand we will reach 10k of course but at least it gives a chance to become sustainable. Fortunately we have some rich backers so have been able to live with the losses otherwise our promotion would have been short lived.
Seems many clubs are in a similiar boat. Only real income growth opportunities are increase the paying audience or increase the corporate support. Neither are easy to do with the sport having such a ltd profile and reach.
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"Only if enough of them are interested in RL. Quite clearly there aren't.
You've personally stated that there aren't in Leigh, which is pretty much a hotbed for the game. Same for Huddersfield, the Wakefield MDC, Halifax, South Yorkshire, Manchester, York, Cumbria.......
I'm afraid until people accept this, the game will never grow as it will continue to overstretch and not set itself realistic 'expansion' targets.'"
There are enough people in Leigh, its just the club, like most others are inept at marketing themselves and just expect them to turn up | | |
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The corporate thing and free tickets/discounted tickets work. And clubs miss this boat. The first macth I saw at the stadium was Wigan vs Widnes in 2003 the reason why me and my missus shown up was free tickets from the local radio station. Since then we have been quite a bit and now are avid fans of the sport. Last week a massive push by the Wigan club and I bought a couple of tickets with Groupon and bgave a ticket and gave it to a mate. First time for him to ever watch rugby match and heloved it and since bought tickets to the next two matches. I can appreciate that we are of the small minority of people who carry on after getting bitten by the bug, but at the same time how do you expect new people to come in if the local club does not reach out to them.
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| Quote ="fatbaztod100"The corporate thing and free tickets/discounted tickets work. And clubs miss this boat. The first macth I saw at the stadium was Wigan vs Widnes in 2003 the reason why me and my missus shown up was free tickets from the local radio station. Since then we have been quite a bit and now are avid fans of the sport. Last week a massive push by the Wigan club and I bought a couple of tickets with Groupon and bgave a ticket and gave it to a mate. First time for him to ever watch rugby match and heloved it and since bought tickets to the next two matches. I can appreciate that we are of the small minority of people who carry on after getting bitten by the bug, but at the same time how do you expect new people to come in if the local club does not reach out to them.'"
I'm delighted you're a convert mate but clubs can't afford to do these too often because you alienate paying fans. | | |
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As mentioned, it's not an issue of costs being too high but more one of revenue is too low. In the end clubs get most of the money needed to spend on players from Sky. The problem for Bradford was that their revenue was just over £4m. That's way, way too low. Especially when they receive around £1.4m from Sky. It's the extra revenue that's the key, for instance Leeds receive around (IIRC) £400k per year just from the Rhinos4Life (the old Loiners Guild) scheme where people pay £2 per week. Do Bradford or other clubs have something similar?
Are clubs making the most of their facilities? Hiring them out for events?
Like Starbug says, clubs are incredibly poor at reaching out to the community sat on their doorstep, be that fans through the gate, local businesses for sponsorship/corporate hospitality or extra events. It all adds up.
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Tough year for St's. 2.4nmill loss in one year, will take some making up. Got to love boardroom speak:
"strong financial and operating platform to take us commercially to a position of strength and confidence."
www.superleaguefans.com/st-helen ... ifice.html |
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Tough year for St's. 2.4nmill loss in one year, will take some making up. Got to love boardroom speak:
"strong financial and operating platform to take us commercially to a position of strength and confidence."
www.superleaguefans.com/st-helen ... ifice.html | |
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Quote ="JB Down Under"This website can give you a free snapshot of all RL clubs
companycheck.co.uk'" It's not a particularly scientific excercise and the info available is limited - but it's an easy way to have a quick look; as several clubs only file abbreviated accounts it's also the only comparable info we'll get:
[codeClub Year end Cash* 'Net Worth'** TCL TCA NCA/(NCL)
Bradford Bulls (Holdings) 31/12/10 62,753 840,653 1,873,863 501,231 (1,372,632)
Castleford Rugby League Football Club 30/11/10 3,702 352,782 2,200,043 113,732 (2,086,311)
Huddersfield Giants Ltd 30/11/10 59,737 (7,325,812) 1,768,211 393,751 (1,374,460)
Hull Kingston Rovers Football Club Ltd 30/11/10 22,571 (2,094,352) 2,671,607 238,433 (2,433,174)
Hull Super League Ltd 31/10/10 329,478 (77,694) 1,293,422 1,027,863 (265,559)
Leeds Cricket Football & Athletic Club 31/10/11 2,275,907 15,380,286 3,560,884 5,921,011 2,360,127
London Rugby League Ltd 30/11/10 86,231 (8,865,285) 875,546 439,398 (436,14icon_cool.gif
Salford Football Club (1914) Ltd 30/11/10 877 (4,352,212) 3,763,566 265,351 (3,498,215)
St Helens Rugby League Football Club 31/10/10 9,540 (1,461,504) 2,704,158 552,743 (2,151,415)
Wakefield Trinity Rgby Lg Football Club 31/12/09 7,299 (119,175) 1,429,060 1,256,517 (172,543)
Warrington Sports Holdings Ltd 30/11/10 36,013 9,553,546 2,710,036 749,525 (1,960,511)
Widnes Sport Ltd 30/11/10 70,569 (361,59icon_cool.gif 838,108 131,114 (706,994)
Wigan Rugby League Club Ltd 30/11/10 710,182 (2,690,240) 5,304,772 1,257,994 (4,046,77icon_cool.gif
[/code[size=82*Cash means the positive cash balances. If there's not much there I presume it means they are running an overdraft which isn't separately disclosed.
**'Net Worth' can be a slightly spurious figure but is indicative of overall financial strength and is the Balance Sheet total less intangible assets. Negative in this case probably means the company has a negative Balance Sheet - not generally a good thing.
TCL = total currrent liabilities (i.e. the amounts the company had incurred at the year end date which it is theoretically obliged to pay out in the next 12 months. This figure will also include some deferred season ticket income for the subsequent season if they were on sale at the respective year ends)
TCA = total current assets; assets held or earned from pre-year end activities (includes the cash balance but also debtors and stock)
NCA/(NCL) = Net current assets or liabilities (being TCA minus TCL). If this goes negative it is one indicator of a potential going concern issue. Only an indicator and only potential. However the fact that 12 of the 13 British SL clubs had net current liabilities is a sign that this isn't a particularly healthy bunch of figures.
Wakefield Trinity is the old company for comparison.
As far as I know these figures are for trading RL clubs and exclude other, related activities be it minor football clubs or associated Rugby Union clubs. At Warrington I've plumped for the stadium owning company which I understand includes in its consolidated figures the subsidiary RL club's activities. [/size
The main thing to note is that these figures don't tell us much about whether a club is on the brink without considering who is backing them - both the Bulls and Wakefield look perhaps slightly better than average BUT did not have owners willing to stomach the cash outflows such as, say, Wigan, London, Salford and Huddersfield have.
Leeds and Warrington are the only clubs at these accounting dates which had invested millions in modern stadium facilities and have the by far the strongest Balance Sheets because of it. |
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Quote ="JB Down Under"This website can give you a free snapshot of all RL clubs
companycheck.co.uk'" It's not a particularly scientific excercise and the info available is limited - but it's an easy way to have a quick look; as several clubs only file abbreviated accounts it's also the only comparable info we'll get:
[codeClub Year end Cash* 'Net Worth'** TCL TCA NCA/(NCL)
Bradford Bulls (Holdings) 31/12/10 62,753 840,653 1,873,863 501,231 (1,372,632)
Castleford Rugby League Football Club 30/11/10 3,702 352,782 2,200,043 113,732 (2,086,311)
Huddersfield Giants Ltd 30/11/10 59,737 (7,325,812) 1,768,211 393,751 (1,374,460)
Hull Kingston Rovers Football Club Ltd 30/11/10 22,571 (2,094,352) 2,671,607 238,433 (2,433,174)
Hull Super League Ltd 31/10/10 329,478 (77,694) 1,293,422 1,027,863 (265,559)
Leeds Cricket Football & Athletic Club 31/10/11 2,275,907 15,380,286 3,560,884 5,921,011 2,360,127
London Rugby League Ltd 30/11/10 86,231 (8,865,285) 875,546 439,398 (436,14icon_cool.gif
Salford Football Club (1914) Ltd 30/11/10 877 (4,352,212) 3,763,566 265,351 (3,498,215)
St Helens Rugby League Football Club 31/10/10 9,540 (1,461,504) 2,704,158 552,743 (2,151,415)
Wakefield Trinity Rgby Lg Football Club 31/12/09 7,299 (119,175) 1,429,060 1,256,517 (172,543)
Warrington Sports Holdings Ltd 30/11/10 36,013 9,553,546 2,710,036 749,525 (1,960,511)
Widnes Sport Ltd 30/11/10 70,569 (361,59icon_cool.gif 838,108 131,114 (706,994)
Wigan Rugby League Club Ltd 30/11/10 710,182 (2,690,240) 5,304,772 1,257,994 (4,046,77icon_cool.gif
[/code[size=82*Cash means the positive cash balances. If there's not much there I presume it means they are running an overdraft which isn't separately disclosed.
**'Net Worth' can be a slightly spurious figure but is indicative of overall financial strength and is the Balance Sheet total less intangible assets. Negative in this case probably means the company has a negative Balance Sheet - not generally a good thing.
TCL = total currrent liabilities (i.e. the amounts the company had incurred at the year end date which it is theoretically obliged to pay out in the next 12 months. This figure will also include some deferred season ticket income for the subsequent season if they were on sale at the respective year ends)
TCA = total current assets; assets held or earned from pre-year end activities (includes the cash balance but also debtors and stock)
NCA/(NCL) = Net current assets or liabilities (being TCA minus TCL). If this goes negative it is one indicator of a potential going concern issue. Only an indicator and only potential. However the fact that 12 of the 13 British SL clubs had net current liabilities is a sign that this isn't a particularly healthy bunch of figures.
Wakefield Trinity is the old company for comparison.
As far as I know these figures are for trading RL clubs and exclude other, related activities be it minor football clubs or associated Rugby Union clubs. At Warrington I've plumped for the stadium owning company which I understand includes in its consolidated figures the subsidiary RL club's activities. [/size
The main thing to note is that these figures don't tell us much about whether a club is on the brink without considering who is backing them - both the Bulls and Wakefield look perhaps slightly better than average BUT did not have owners willing to stomach the cash outflows such as, say, Wigan, London, Salford and Huddersfield have.
Leeds and Warrington are the only clubs at these accounting dates which had invested millions in modern stadium facilities and have the by far the strongest Balance Sheets because of it. | |
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