Great idea. I'll just ring my mate with 50 million Euros to spare and tell him to get on it

Toulouse was playing in tier 2, the Championship, before. But their past experience there is not relevant to my comment. I was referring to LambChops suggestion that they start in tier 3, Championship [size=1201[/size, which is the level where I suggested cricket scores would emanate from. Toulouse is much too good to start in Championship 1.

I think the Kieghleys and Barrows of this world might just have something to say about that, I doubt Toulouse would beat those teams let alone put a "cricket-score" on them.

In fact weren't they actually relegated in 2011 and couldn't afford to play in Championship 1 for 2012? So much for their financial backers, eh?

No, the problem with Toulouse, is the same as London, Paris, Crusaders and even Catalans (the so-called "success story" of expansionists) is that they are almost ENTIRELY dependent on the Sky money.

Catalans are no more dependent on the Sky money than any other SL club.

The only clubs that could possibly manage without it are Leeds and a Koukash-funded Salford. Even then it would seriously strain Leeds' finances and test Koukash's will.

Do you think that Catalan have improved SL or made the competition less entertaining/exciting ?

Also, if/when a championship club gets promoted, do you think the fans of this club might enjoy a trip over there to watch their team play against French opposition ?

The aspect that most would agree on, is that the inclusion of an additional French club needs to be handled sensibly, which under the new format makes it almost impossible.

As I said in a previous post, for the game to prosper we need some credible opposition closer than Australia/NZ and France is the only option.
Their current top flight is just behind Championship level and therefore is not in any position to suddenly go full time so, what is the solution,
expel Catalan from SL, tell the French to get on with it themselves and lose large chunks of sponsorship ??

The game would shrink faster than an ice cube in a teapot, and the game would be back as a part time sport and possibly not even worthy of Sky coverage

I think if a club was dropped into the top flight, it would be a 13 team league. Keep the current system the same. There would probably be a dispensation, but so long as it was for a definitive period and no extentions clubs would have no issue as the current system would continue. It would not close the door for others and the current SL teams would need to vote to spread their money.

Seems fair enough, pretty much the only sensible way to include an additional club.

The bizarre issue here is, that the RFL must have known that a Toulouse "bid" was on the table when they were working on the idea for the new structure.
It would have been far simpler to go for 1 up 1 down and if "the million pound game" is critical to their idea, just have the top championship club play off against the bottom SL club, although this format is far too simple to even be considered.
Of course, an odd number of clubs gives us a problem with the magic weekend.

So Rugby League only exists because of Sky TV

What are you on about? How are Catalans any more dependent on the Sky TV money than Wakefield, Widnes, Hull KR, Hull FC, Castleford etc?

Professional RL in England does



Without Sky money, there would be 5/6 full time pro clubs and the rest would be part time.
Do you remember the 80's ?

Face facts, although most of the posters on this forum think that RL is or should be a main stream sport, the reality in this country is that it simply isn't.

How ever much we feel hard done to the game has to grow to maintain or improve its position in the sporting pecking order.

Even the Challenge Cup, which is a fantastic competition with a rich history, is falling off the radar.
The main broadcasters are barely interested.

Depute the propaganda put out by RL HQ, we have to gain a wider audience and we wont do this with 10/12 northern based rugby league clubs.

So, if we shouldn't add a further French cub, what is your answer as to how we attract new investment into the sport.

Him, did those clubs not exist before 1980, then?

Sorry, my bad, I thought most of the Northern clubs were over 100 years old. I'll shut up because I didn't realise Sky had founded/funded these clubs too.

One question though, what happened to the original clubs and how did they survive without Sky's SL millions until 1980?

I have already said I'm not against it, what I have said is if Sky want a European League they should create one, where as what they are doing is simply "parachuting" clubs into the English League.

Take the big five and Catalans, take the top 3 French clubs, add Dorcal, Red Star and CSKA, give them £5M each and there you have it! Job done.

We already have a European League which the likes of Leeds , Wigan Wakefield and Catalan play in. And until last season, so did London. When SL was formed it was formed as the European Super League.

Agreed, what they did though was parachute London & Paris into the top English Division and a lump of other clubs out, that is not creating a European League, it is jerrymandering the English League.

Nobody can argue that the "creation" of SL was done too hastily.

If you believe Maurice Lindsay, who was largely responsible for getting the deal done, the top flight of RL in England was almost bankrupt (especially his beloved Wigan) and to secure the deal, the change was forced through very quickly indeed and the league was "created" rather than places "won" on the field of play.

There have also been undoubted mistakes along the way with some teams (especially Paris) doomed to fail but, RL has a natural base in the south of France, which does need help to make a more competitive nation and the argument is on how to achieve this.

If you allow their game to grow stronger and eventually try and become a full time pro league, it may never happen and again, if we want a stronger international competition the French need help.

Just imagine if we had to try and pull our national team from say Leeds, plus the pick of any English Championship players ?

Wrencat, I whole heartedly agree, I just don't think parachuting yet another club into our own top-flight helps us at all. We need to think better, be smarter!

If expansion and helping the European wide game is vital, which I don't dispute, I don't think stamping over the English League (Europes' strongest) is the way to do it.

We NEED better ideas!

It may have escaped your attention, but rather a lot has changed in the North of England in since 1980.

ridler', I was born in the North, so please don't go there with the ignorant-southerner routine, I'm not saying Sky's money is not needed, I AM saying, exansion has to be done in a better way than simply parachuting clubs into Division One, which in effect, is what we have!

One alternative, if there was enough backing/sponsorship, would be to disband Catalan Dragons and spread their players amongst say the top 8 French Clubs and try and create a French SL, although this is maybe unworkable and it could be a step in the wrong direction to dismantle what is a successful SL club.

Also, does SL have to include a French club to comply with the Sky concept of a European SL ?, which would be interesting should they ever end up in the middle 8.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but how would you do it?

Ideally, we'd have both a strong UK league structure and a strong French one, but how do we get there? For a strong standalone French league to be a possibility, they need a decent TV deal as people have said. It's how they get that deal that's sufficient enough to sustain the French sides, like Sky with our sides.

Could Catalans go back now, and have one strong club joinging the current top league - would a TV company want to pay for a league that would at first be walked by one club, would they be able to attract decent players?

Or could we admit Toulouse next year, and possibly another French club in 5-10 years into our league structure and then look at a return to France in say 15 years when ready? With three strong clubs as it's foundation, a French league is more likely to flourish.

It genuinely is a difficult one.

The other factor though, is SL a better competition with Catalans in it? Definitely. And would we be able to replace the French clubs should they go?

I'll say it again, what are you on about?
Most SL clubs have incomes of £6m or less, some significantly so. Take 1/3rd of that away. The clubs would have to go part time bar a clubs wealthy owner being willing to pay £2m extra per year or maybe Leeds if they really cut back in other areas.

You said Catalans were entirely dependent on the Sky money. As if that's a negative against them compared to "heartland" clubs.

So I'll ask the question again:
How are Catalans more dependent on Sky money than other clubs?

What SL needs and has always needed, and has never had, is a plan.

Bringing in Catalans was a masterstroke but those have been few and far between. Having praised the deed, still again there is no plan. That is, what is the medium to long term aim of bringing them in? That is a question I've asked for years, but I also realise that the truth is, nobody has any aim, there is no plan, the RFL and SLE are just winging it and hoping something comes along.

Catalans are a great asset for SL but they are taking up an English club's place in the English comp. I know it is ESL in name but in reality that is something that we are a million miles from. In soccer, we hav extremely strong and highly financed premier leagues in many Euro countries, and on top of that, an international layer of Euro competition in the form of (principally) the Champions League plus the mugs version.

So even in that moneyed game, they don't aim to just have the cream of each country's teams playing in a European league, abandoning domestic competition to the lesser lights.

If they can't do it, how the fookin hell could we?

You only have to look at a concept of some hypothetical future ESL with teams from say England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey etc. to understand why this is centuries away from happening.

So I ask - yet again - what IS the plan with Catalans? It would have been possible to aim for them eventually going back and spearheading a much-strengthened French SL. Except, how would that work? Would the club and the players ever agree to stop playing in the world's no. 2 comp, to be parachuted back into what would still be a much lesser level French league? How would you (just for one example) persuade their better players to go for that idea? Why would the club owners and financiers remotely be interested?

And you plainly can't just keep adding random foreign teams to the English league, as there is no room, so in each case, one English club would have to bite the bullet and be demoted. Do we have the luxury of being able to do that? Even the mighty Bulls are unlikely to survive in anything like their present form should their stay in the Championship last more than one season and then there is unlikely to be any meaningful way back?

It all smacks of policy on the hoof, and I'm afraid I don't believe the RFL/ESL have the first idea where they are going to go, keeping enough clubs playing and solvent is more than challenge enough for the foreseeable.

They did create one: Super League. They took the clubs they wanted and put them in SL. It was founded as a European league.
You can keep calling it an English league all you like, but it is a European league.


You would then have people saying "they've parachuted x,y,Z into our league" like you are.
My to mention I very much doubt there are 3 extra French clubs and 3 other European clubs able to make anywhere near the jump to full time. It would kill the game, which is why no one would even dream of throwing money at them (let alone £5m per year, which they don't even do currently).

You have absolutely no strategy for growing the game in Europe.
A Non-English full time league is pie in the sky.

The best bet for Europe is to keep adding teams into SL as they are ready and look to build a European conference of a few clubs separate from the English but still part of the same competition. No one is going to turn up from the unknown and throw tens of millions at bunch unproven clubs. Maybe one, but not enough to build a league.

Gradual, sustained growth.

Bringing in Toulouse is a complete waste of time, standard of french players way below standard. Catalans struggle as well currently Catalans have about 10 non french players in theire first 20 squad.
We don,t even have parity in whatever you want to call Euroleague, overseas players can,t get a visa to play in an English Club but doesn,t seem to be a problem with a French Club.
I,m more interested in having more quality english players than subsidising french clubs who overload there teams with overseas players from the southern hemisphere.