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| Quote ="Asgardian13"Overall the playing standards are now higher than I recall ...'"
What "standards" are you judging though?
Again, we are certainly bigger and stronger. Probably fitter. But insofar as specialised skills are concerned (which were an [iessential facet[/i of the game) modern players are entirely lacking.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Was the game "commercially successful" when were pulling 100,000 fans into Odsal? Serious question, BTW.'"
Having been born in 1981 I honestly couldn't answer that question What I would say is that that was one game in the entire season, how were the rest of the crowds at those times? What was the annual turnover of the RFL member clubs? Were any of those clubs actually profitable, or did they all rely on financial backers to bankroll the operation? When you're looking at historical accounting records, should the sums involved be adjusted for inflation, or should they be presented directly from source, with accompanying national average wages for the periods being compared? (edit: maybe also include the relevant periods' unemployment figures as a % of the available workforce)
To me commercial success and crowd figures don't tie up hand in hand, of course higher support gives you the opportunity to turn over more money and reap higher profits, but it doesn't guarantee it.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"What "standards" are you judging though?
Again, we are certainly bigger and stronger. Probably fitter. But insofar as specialised skills are concerned (which were an [iessential facet[/i of the game) modern players are entirely lacking.'"
[iEntirely[/i lacking?
So there is entirely no specialisation between the game played by, say, Lee Briers and Gareth Ellis? What about Sam Tomkins and Gareth Hock? Could Wigan interchange them during the game?
Some of your earlier posts made a lot of sense, this 'no specialisation' nonsense is entirely that however.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Interesting example - I would argue the opposite, that Hanley would be less effective (rather than more) in today's game.'"
I doubt Hanly would be a LF in tdays game, but I reckon he'd be a revelation at centre or SO today.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Interesting example - I would argue the opposite, that Hanley would be less effective (rather than more) in today's game.'"
Hanley is the finest British rugby player I have had the privilege to watch live and ranks up alongside Wally Lewis and Andrew Johns as one of the best players of the last 30 years or so
But it is an interesting question about how effective he would be in the modern game. He was almost the ‘prototype’ modern League player with immense athletic ability and talent but I think it is fair to say that this differentiator would be less now that all the players are that bit stronger and faster. Also, the game has changed so much – one of the most famous of Hanley’s tries was the length of the field effort down the right wing for Bradford beating man after man on the way. But I have to say, I don’t think he could score that try if it was today as the whole team now scrambles in defence much better (partly due to extra conditioning, partly better coaching)
However, having said that, Hanley would still be a great. He had already changed his game when he played for Leeds and his work rate was exceptional. He would bring that to SL plus a unique ability to beat the tackle. I think he would definitely be a loose forward in the modern game and he would be a great one
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| Quote ="Mugwump" But insofar as specialised skills are concerned (which were an [iessential facet[/i of the game) modern players are entirely lacking.'"
As a coach, trust me: skill levels are far higher than they have ever been.
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| Quote ="Richie"As a coach, trust me: skill levels are far higher than they have ever been.'"
So can you give us a brief outline of your coaching methods from say 1932, 1948, 1953, 1967, 1974, 1988, 1995.....
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| Quote ="Mr Dog"So can you give us a brief outline of your coaching methods from say 1932, 1948, 1953, 1967, 1974, 1988, 1995.....'"
What's the relevance of my, or anyone's, coaching methods?
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| Quote ="Richie"What's the relevance of my, or anyone's, coaching methods?'"
It isn't the method he is querying , it's how you are comparing them to the past he is questioning
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| Quote ="Starbug"It isn't the method he is querying , it's how you are comparing them to the past he is questioning'"
Watching the game, or footage of the game from ye olden dayes.
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| Quote ="Richie"Watching the game, or footage of the game from ye olden dayes.'"
So its your opinion as a ' viewer ' rather than a coach
I am also a RL coach , as I am sure are many others on these boards
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| Quote ="Starbug"So its your opinion as a ' viewer ' rather than a coach
I am also a RL coach , as I am sure are many others on these boards'"
As a viewer of ye oldene dayes and a coach and viewer of the modern day.
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| Quote ="Richie"As a coach, trust me: skill levels are far higher than they have ever been.'"
Skill levels are higher in facets of the game we've chosen to concentrate on. So dropped into a scrum in the sixties Keiron Cunningham would be right up at (or near) the top in terms of size, power, fitness etc. But given the rules of the game which dictated a high degree of specialisation (requiring years of experience to master) he'd be a weakness. In those days hookers were fundamental to keeping possession of the ball. More than one team lost a Challenge Cup Final because it couldn't field an experienced hooker. Sure, with ball in hand Cunningham would be a real handful. But you could imagine a clever number seven such as Murphy having an absolute field day kicking the ball into touch knowing full well his total lack of scrummaging skill would result in scrum after scrum being lost.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Skill levels are higher in facets of the game we've chosen to concentrate on. So dropped into a scrum in the sixties Keiron Cunningham would be right up at (or near) the top in terms of size, power, fitness etc. But given the rules of the game which dictated a high degree of specialisation (requiring years of experience to master) he'd be a weakness. In those days hookers were fundamental to keeping possession of the ball. More than one team lost a Challenge Cup Final because it couldn't field an experienced hooker. Sure, with ball in hand Cunningham would be a real handful. But you could imagine a clever number seven such as Murphy having an absolute field day kicking the ball into touch knowing full well his total lack of scrummaging skill would result in scrum after scrum being lost.'"
OK, so we've lost some of the RU legacy skills no longer relevant to the game.
KC would just play another position, in the same way that if he'd gone to RU he wouldn't throw the ball in at lineouts.
The irrelevant skills have been made up many times over by improvements in relevant skills.
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| I've got to be honest and say that the one skill being lost from the game that I don't lament is scrummaging. Like (I assume) everyone else here I watched the 'classic challenge cup final' replay from 1978 on BBC4 not all that long ago. And my immediate reaction to the scrums in that game were not "Oh man, that's awesome, I wish we had competitive scrums in modern RL", it was "What an absolutely shambolic god-awful mess, I'm glad we don't do that anymore".
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| Quote ="Paul Thexton"I've got to be honest and say that the one skill being lost from the game that I don't lament is scrummaging. Like (I assume) everyone else here I watched the 'classic challenge cup final' replay from 1978 on BBC4 not all that long ago. And my immediate reaction to the scrums in that game were not "Oh man, that's awesome, I wish we had competitive scrums in modern RL", it was "What an absolutely shambolic god-awful mess, I'm glad we don't do that anymore".'"
I say scrap the scrum. It is useless in my opinion. It is just a way of starting the game up again, this could easily be done with a tap. It is very rare you see a set play from a scrum nowadays as well. Just get rid.
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| I'd have to agree that the scrum is a joke. Get rid - a complete waste of time.
My view on the game today is that I think the players are a bit too athletic and getting a bit too big. Too much emphasis on strength and conditioning which means I think we end up missing a lot of the smaller and more intelligent players we once used to see. This isn't just a problem in league - the same has happened in yawnion.
One area which I think has been left to rot since the game went to summer is at International level. Is this just a phase or is this a serious decline in the international game? Do any of us still care about beating Australia?
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| Quote ="Haggis Fax"My view on the game today is that I think the players are a bit too athletic and getting a bit too big. Too much emphasis on strength and conditioning which means I think we end up missing a lot of the smaller and more intelligent players we once used to see. '"
? Tomkins, Burrow, Robinson, Mcguire, Brough, etc?
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| Quote ="just_browny"[iEntirely[/i lacking?'"
Do *you* think Keiron Cunningham - at the height of his career - could perform in a contested scrum against a similarly experienced and talented hooker back in the sixties? I don't.
Quote So there is entirely no specialisation between the game played by, say, Lee Briers and Gareth Ellis? What about Sam Tomkins and Gareth Hock? Could Wigan interchange them during the game?'"
In the modern game it's entirely possible for one player to play - and perform reasonably well - in any position that doesn't exclude his size. Throughout his career I've seen Paul Wellens play full back, wing, centre, second row, scrum half, stand-off and - I think - hooker.
And Wellens is hardly the exception. Just about every club has players who can adapt to four, five or even six positions.
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| Quote ="Richie"OK, so we've lost some of the RU legacy skills no longer relevant to the game.
KC would just play another position, in the same way that if he'd gone to RU he wouldn't throw the ball in at lineouts.
The irrelevant skills have been made up many times over by improvements in relevant skills.'"
These skills are only "irrelevant" because you are looking at them outside of their context. If we could build a time machine and bring fans of sixties league - who appreciated the intricacies of specialisation, the tactical possibilities etc. - forward are you naive enough to think they'd prostrate themselves in wonder?
This reminds me of arguments I've had with fans new to boxing who think all modern fighters MUST BE light years ahead of their predecessors because they pump iron, eat broccoli and drink protein shakes.
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| Quote ="Haggis Fax"Do any of us still care about beating Australia?'"
Hell yes! More than anything else in the sport. I've been waiting 30 years to witness it and every year I wait will make the moment all the sweeter. Here's hoping it's the World Cup Final
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Do *you* think Keiron Cunningham - at the height of his career - could perform in a contested scrum against a similarly experienced and talented hooker back in the sixties? I don't. '"
Well you did say "specialist skills" rather than "obselete skill"
Quote ="Mugwump"In the modern game it's entirely possible for one player to play - and perform reasonably well - in any position that doesn't exclude his size. Throughout his career I've seen Paul Wellens play full back, wing, centre, second row, scrum half, stand-off and - I think - hooker.
And Wellens is hardly the exception. Just about every club has players who can adapt to four, five or even six positions.'"
Which shows just how skilled the modern player is. Almost ever player has an extensive skill set.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"These skills are only "irrelevant" because you are looking at them outside of their context. If we could build a time machine and bring fans of sixties league - who appreciated the intricacies of specialisation, the tactical possibilities etc. - forward are you naive enough to think they'd prostrate themselves in wonder?
This reminds me of arguments I've had with fans new to boxing who think all modern fighters MUST BE light years ahead of their predecessors because they pump iron, eat broccoli and drink protein shakes.'"
Indeed those from the 60s would. They would be amazed by our modern game (as a few of the older posters have said) as I'm amazed by footage of the old game as how bad it was. The skill set, capability, athleticism, tactical awareness, and organisation are indeed light years ahead of the old game.
It's only in sports where we can't get a direct measure of era vs era we have this idea that the old eras somehow had something better about them. When we can make a direct measure, e.g. in athletics, we can see quite clearly the progress made.
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| Quote ="Dunbar"Hell yes! More than anything else in the sport. I've been waiting 30 years to witness it and every year I wait will make the moment all the sweeter. Here's hoping it's the World Cup Final'"
I'm usually very calm when watching the sport, whether it's SL, the team I coach, the amateur club I work with, or even players that have graduated from my team. But when it's against Australia, that's when I get really emotional about the game. I'm sure Australians are nice people, but I f****** hate them when they're their national team.
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| The basis of this thread was obviously Bradford's recent troubles, but i don't believe the mess they're in or the similar woes Wakefield faced last year are down to the state of just rugby league only but the way clubs from all sports have mismanaged since the millenium.
In football we all know the plight of Leeds United, Portsmouth have gone from FA Cup winners to 2 administrations in around 4 years, even Liverpool of all teams were looking dodgy just over a year ago. In cricket some counties are paying the price for chasing Test matches and doing their grounds up to achieve that.
Owners of sport teams have horribly managed clubs hoping for success or just plain not had a good balanced structure in place.
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