[quote="Stu M":gae1uo7h]£500k per year Then we obviously earn whatever sales come from food and drink. The pitch was £1.3m so it’s a good relationship on both sides.[/quote:gae1uo7h] Sounds like a great deal for Saints.

[quote="Stu M":3lhgplui]£500k per year Then we obviously earn whatever sales come from food and drink. The pitch was £1.3m so it’s a good relationship on both sides.[/quote:3lhgplui] A good income stream which is important given the last couple of years financially.

Read a rumour on Redvee that we wanted Vaughan and it looks like it's well on the cards along with Sambou. Brave lads! https://www.alloutrugbyleague.co.uk/new ... ommunities

Read a rumour on Redvee that we wanted Vaughan and it looks like it's well on the cards along with Sambou. Brave lads! https://www.alloutrugbyleague.co.uk/new ... ommunities

[quote="NickyKiss":1we2qsu7]Read a rumour on Redvee that we wanted Vaughan and it looks like it's well on the cards along with Sambou. Brave lads! https://www.alloutrugbyleague.co.uk/new ... ommunities[/quote:1we2qsu7] Don’t know much about either lad but even if it isn’t true the response on RedVee is pretty decent view on a cold Monday evening. Maybe it’s cover for Eckersley on the assumption that Keighran will be departing at the end of 2025 re Vaughan? Not sure where that puts Nathan Lowe for us unless we see Vaughan as a second rower? Interesting times.

[quote="NickyKiss":1we2qsu7]Read a rumour on Redvee that we wanted Vaughan and it looks like it's well on the cards along with Sambou. Brave lads! https://www.alloutrugbyleague.co.uk/new ... ommunities[/quote:1we2qsu7] Don’t know much about either lad but even if it isn’t true the response on RedVee is pretty decent view on a cold Monday evening. Maybe it’s cover for Eckersley on the assumption that Keighran will be departing at the end of 2025 re Vaughan? Not sure where that puts Nathan Lowe for us unless we see Vaughan as a second rower? Interesting times.

[quote="Itchy Arsenal":1cjbw1ho]Don’t know much about either lad but even if it isn’t true the response on RedVee is pretty decent view on a cold Monday evening. Maybe it’s cover for Eckersley on the assumption that Keighran will be departing at the end of 2025 re Vaughan? Not sure where that puts Nathan Lowe for us unless we see Vaughan as a second rower? Interesting times.[/quote:1cjbw1ho] Pretty sure we'll be seeing Vaughan primarily as a second rower and taking a long term view that he can help replace Faz, Isa etc. His profile reminds me a bit of Bateman when we signed him (although I don't think Bateman was on for a law degree like this lad) in that he can play back row, centre and is captain of the England academy.

All I can say is Wigan must really see something in these two to make this move. We have a great academy and the club takes a lot of pride in developing Wigan born players to a high standard. To bring in two lads from the Saints academy must mean they think there's a good chance they'll be international players. If it had been any of Robertson, Whitby or Stephens it would have been absolute meltdown at St Helens but even with these two it must sting. The balance of power is well and truly with Wigan at the moment.

Has anyone heard anything on Sam Walters potentially joining Hull this season? Don't actually think anything will be in it, but the guy who told me said we were releasing Abdull, then a few days later the story broke.

[quote="mwindass":9tqid4tn]Has anyone heard anything on Sam Walters potentially joining Hull this season? Don't actually think anything will be in it, but the guy who told me said we were releasing Abdull, then a few days later the story broke.[/quote:9tqid4tn] Don't see how that could possibly be true - he's our only back up second rower as it stands.

[quote="MadDogg":3blcwhzf]Don't see how that could possibly be true - he's our only back up second rower as it stands.[/quote:3blcwhzf] If he didn't tell me about Abdull I would've brushed it off as BS. Didn't he move back the the NW for family reasons too?

[quote="mwindass":bmjpxfjt]Has anyone heard anything on Sam Walters potentially joining Hull this season? Don't actually think anything will be in it, but the guy who told me said we were releasing Abdull, then a few days later the story broke.[/quote:bmjpxfjt] I would be staggered if that was the case. Not unless we have 2 2nd rowers coming in but its a bit late in pre-season for that kind of thing

[quote="[Gareth]":1omfoqu3]I would be staggered if that was the case. Not unless we have 2 2nd rowers coming in but its a bit late in pre-season for that kind of thing[/quote:1omfoqu3] Vaughan coming in early wouldn't surprise me. I would have the Saints fan base as one of the least understanding of players career decisions and when that decision is to go to Wigan, I struggle to see him turning out for Saints in 2025 and being given an easy ride. Once Wigan found out Nicholson was going to sign for Wire for the following season, they just said he could go with immediate effect and a move from Wigan to Wire is nowhere near as controversial.

JV is a cracking prospect maybe not the most physically gifted but a genuine competitor and very intelligent runner. Adds competition and depth alongside Lucas Mason. I think his attitude and competitive nature is what will have drawn our attention. Not sure about Sambou he’s obviously an athlete with pace and maybe he kicks on in our environment to develop his game. As the old saying goes you can’t coach pace. Vaughn particularly is a big kick in the stones for Saints I think this move is indicative of the rot that has set in there from the top down and I’d say losing him adds more pressure to Wellens and them starting well in 2025. Would be great to get them both in early as there is no way they will be getting first team opportunities this year now at Saints.

Staggered by this to be honest, I really am, for a number of reasons. Wigan have acted like a huge club again, forward thinking and from what I am hearing, Peet and Radlinski have outlined a plan and shown some real faith in Vaughan in particular. I have heard the other side of the story but I'm not putting that on here. What is clear is that we have sleep walked yet again and our biggest rivals have beaten us to the punch. Its just another sign of the general malaise at the club that after feeling positive with the signings, the new assistant coaches and the feel good nature of pre-season and the players comments, that the Salford defeat, Knowles leaving and now this has just added to the negativity. What I don't get though is the plan that Wigan will have. Vaughan is a competitor who didn't really do loads last season but there was also mitigation for that. He has been Lancashire and England Academy captain and is a terrific leader. A die hard Saints fan who has now signed for the enemy. However Wigan don't need to poach Academy lads when they have the best Academy in the comp. What now happens to their young lads? Walters, Nsemba and Farrell will be the back rows and that's without the Wigan Academy lads Where does Sambou get a look in with Eckersley and Wardle. What then happens with Nathan Lowe who is extremely highly rated at Wigan, unless they are looking at a wing spot but then of course there is Jacob Douglas. Sambou isn't the one that I am that worried about, he's coming off the back of a bad injury and Dagnall and Robertson are ahead of him. He may or may not turn out to be a good player. I've argued with Saints fans about my worry of Wigan being the Man City of Rugby league and effectively turning the comp into a procession each year. Whilst that's great for Wigan fans it's not great for the game. They can't buy everyone but their financial strength means that no one can get near them. I agree with NK that I can see both players being bought out and coming a year early. They simply can't stay at Saints and why should Saints invest in any sort of development for them when they are going to Wigan. We should let them rot and not play them nor send them out on dual reg but if they went earlier, we save a bit of SC and get them away from the environment. What I will say though is that after Peet's comments about Matty Nicholson, it's quite ironic and I wonder what he would say now? Also there were lots on here saying that Vaughan isn't really all that when they were mocking the "golden generation" Saints talk about. Funny how the narrative changes From Saints point of view we simply have to wake up and start to act like a big club again. We have gone from the most dominant team in RL to a laughing stock in 2 years. I get that Wigan fans will laugh at this and love it. Of course they will but Wigan need a strong Saints so be careful what you wish for. The sport needs a strong Saints and Wigan and at the minute and seemingly for the foreseeable future, there is only one powerhouse.

[quote="Stu M":3pmxkirk]Staggered by this to be honest, I really am, for a number of reasons. Wigan have acted like a huge club again, forward thinking and from what I am hearing, Peet and Radlinski have outlined a plan and shown some real faith in Vaughan in particular. I have heard the other side of the story but I'm not putting that on here. What is clear is that we have sleep walked yet again and our biggest rivals have beaten us to the punch. Its just another sign of the general malaise at the club that after feeling positive with the signings, the new assistant coaches and the feel good nature of pre-season and the players comments, that the Salford defeat, Knowles leaving and now this has just added to the negativity. What I don't get though is the plan that Wigan will have. Vaughan is a competitor who didn't really do loads last season but there was also mitigation for that. He has been Lancashire and England Academy captain and is a terrific leader. A die hard Saints fan who has now signed for the enemy. However Wigan don't need to poach Academy lads when they have the best Academy in the comp. What now happens to their young lads? Walters, Nsemba and Farrell will be the back rows and that's without the Wigan Academy lads Where does Sambou get a look in with Eckersley and Wardle. What then happens with Nathan Lowe who is extremely highly rated at Wigan, unless they are looking at a wing spot but then of course there is Jacob Douglas. Sambou isn't the one that I am that worried about, he's coming off the back of a bad injury and Dagnall and Robertson are ahead of him. He may or may not turn out to be a good player. I've argued with Saints fans about my worry of Wigan being the Man City of Rugby league and effectively turning the comp into a procession each year. Whilst that's great for Wigan fans it's not great for the game. They can't buy everyone but their financial strength means that no one can get near them. I agree with NK that I can see both players being bought out and coming a year early. They simply can't stay at Saints and why should Saints invest in any sort of development for them when they are going to Wigan. We should let them rot and not play them nor send them out on dual reg but if they went earlier, we save a bit of SC and get them away from the environment. [b:3pmxkirk]What I will say though is that after Peet's comments about Matty Nicholson, it's quite ironic and I wonder what he would say now? Also there were lots on here saying that Vaughan isn't really all that when they were mocking the "golden generation" Saints talk about. Funny how the narrative changes [/b:3pmxkirk] From Saints point of view we simply have to wake up and start to act like a big club again. We have gone from the most dominant team in RL to a laughing stock in 2 years. I get that Wigan fans will laugh at this and love it. Of course they will but Wigan need a strong Saints so be careful what you wish for. The sport needs a strong Saints and Wigan and at the minute and seemingly for the foreseeable future, there is only one powerhouse.[/quote:3pmxkirk] It's a fair point that. I suspect that Peet probably regrets being as forthright as he was - in public at least - when that was announced. A big difference though is that Wigan (alongside Saints) have easily the best record in bringing through their own academy players compared to everyone else in the league. So you can hardly make the 'demoralised' comment about anyone in the Wigan set up, whereas maybe you could for Wire. Hopefully we're starting to see that change under Burgess. And on the Man City point, I think the only way that happens is with serious changes to the salary cap. As good as it feels to be a Wigan fan just now, sport is cyclical and no amount of clever salary cap management and positive culture is going to keep us on top. It's only a couple of years since Saints seemed almost untouchable.

He doesn't let his tongue run away with him very often but Peet probably did with those Nicholson comments and it was probably a good lesson for him. The defence I would give him though is that leaving Wigan for Warrington made far less sense than anybody leaving clubs to sign for Wigan currently, even if that is St Helens. Nicholson has been given a couple of chances and he just needed to hold on a few more months and he then would've been a regular in 2023. It worked out well for Nicholson in the end but he would've broke through here as well and would've left Superleague with 5 or 6 medals/rings in his suitcase. We'll see how these lads go. I've seen very very little of the pair of them. Obviously the really hurtful one for Saints is Vaughan and looking at him there are both things to cling to that make you think he'll be a top quality player but also some doubts. His size is the main doubt. He doesn't look quick enough to play centre and maybe not big enough for the pack but guys like Bateman and Bentley make up for a lack of size with aggression and a competitive edge and if he's got that, he should be ok. His pedigree of captaining the England academy side makes you think he must have a real chance of making a good career for himself.

[quote="Stu M":3jx8lsxc]Staggered by this to be honest, I really am, for a number of reasons. Wigan have acted like a huge club again, forward thinking and from what I am hearing, Peet and Radlinski have outlined a plan and shown some real faith in Vaughan in particular. I have heard the other side of the story but I'm not putting that on here. What is clear is that we have sleep walked yet again and our biggest rivals have beaten us to the punch. Its just another sign of the general malaise at the club that after feeling positive with the signings, the new assistant coaches and the feel good nature of pre-season and the players comments, that the Salford defeat, Knowles leaving and now this has just added to the negativity. What I don't get though is the plan that Wigan will have. Vaughan is a competitor who didn't really do loads last season but there was also mitigation for that. He has been Lancashire and England Academy captain and is a terrific leader. A die hard Saints fan who has now signed for the enemy. However Wigan don't need to poach Academy lads when they have the best Academy in the comp. What now happens to their young lads? Walters, Nsemba and Farrell will be the back rows and that's without the Wigan Academy lads Where does Sambou get a look in with Eckersley and Wardle. What then happens with Nathan Lowe who is extremely highly rated at Wigan, unless they are looking at a wing spot but then of course there is Jacob Douglas. Sambou isn't the one that I am that worried about, he's coming off the back of a bad injury and Dagnall and Robertson are ahead of him. He may or may not turn out to be a good player. I've argued with Saints fans about my worry of Wigan being the Man City of Rugby league and effectively turning the comp into a procession each year. Whilst that's great for Wigan fans it's not great for the game. They can't buy everyone but their financial strength means that no one can get near them. I agree with NK that I can see both players being bought out and coming a year early. They simply can't stay at Saints and why should Saints invest in any sort of development for them when they are going to Wigan. We should let them rot and not play them nor send them out on dual reg but if they went earlier, we save a bit of SC and get them away from the environment. What I will say though is that after Peet's comments about Matty Nicholson, it's quite ironic and I wonder what he would say now? Also there were lots on here saying that Vaughan isn't really all that when they were mocking the "golden generation" Saints talk about. Funny how the narrative changes From Saints point of view we simply have to wake up and start to act like a big club again. We have gone from the most dominant team in RL to a laughing stock in 2 years. I get that Wigan fans will laugh at this and love it. Of course they will but Wigan need a strong Saints so be careful what you wish for. The sport needs a strong Saints and Wigan and at the minute and seemingly for the foreseeable future, there is only one powerhouse.[/quote:3jx8lsxc] I’m a little uneasy with the signings as I’d much prefer the Wigan lads been given a chance. I hated the Nicholson situation and so did Peet but he let himself down with those comments (wire academy has improved since) Be interesting to know the terms of the contract I imagine Vaughan will be long term and it may just be a 1 year flyer on Sambo. Stu im wondering how Wigans financial power is having an impact, yes we can get the best Marque players (French, Thompson and Field/Nsemba) but the rest of the squad we still have the same constraints as everyone?

[quote="NickyKiss":2o2m5vku] We'll see how these lads go. I've seen very very little of the pair of them. Obviously the really hurtful one for Saints is Vaughan and looking at him there are both things to cling to that make you think he'll be a top quality player but also some doubts. His size is the main doubt. He doesn't look quick enough to play centre and maybe not big enough for the pack but guys like Bateman and Bentley make up for a lack of size with aggression and a competitive edge and if he's got that, he should be ok. His pedigree of captaining the England academy side makes you think he must have a real chance of making a good career for himself.[/quote:2o2m5vku] This isn't sour grapes as I've said the exact same thing on Red Vee but the points you make on Vaughan are valid. I don't know what his USP is. He's not big, he's not super strong and he's not quick. He's a competitor no question but I don't know where he fits in. You are spot on in that he could well turn out to be a Bateman. In 2-3 years time it will be clear who made the right decision. It's not a great look when die hard Saints fans are making the decision to go to Wigan although to be fair perhaps you could return serve with Welsby who was a Wigan fan and ended up at Saints. Also it's worrying when Wigan are signing lads from the likes of Thatto Heath who again are St Helens lads born and bred and fans of the club but that's another conversation. I've been very critical of the club of late and nothing is changing my mind however to play devils advocate, I do wonder if they are putting a lot of faith in Jake Davies and Billy Keeley, both back-rowers a couple of years younger and well thought of. Perhaps they've looked at the emergence of those two who knows. That's an assumption on my part that I am clinging onto!

[quote="NSW":jfmi9lrq]I’m a little uneasy with the signings as I’d much prefer the Wigan lads been given a chance. I hated the Nicholson situation and so did Peet but he let himself down with those comments (wire academy has improved since) Be interesting to know the terms of the contract I imagine Vaughan will be long term and it may just be a 1 year flyer on Sambo. Stu im wondering how Wigans financial power is having an impact, yes we can get the best Marque players (French, Thompson and Field/Nsemba) but the rest of the squad we still have the same constraints as everyone?[/quote:jfmi9lrq] Because I'm wondering now if Saints are spending up to cap or saving money to offset losses. We are continually told that we are by the club but players leaving and players coming in doesn't add up unless we've made a bad job of managing it. Matautia has not been replaced and you could argue that some of that may be taken up with Delaney's new deal but who knows.

[quote="Stu M":2lvyz0ie]Because I'm wondering now if Saints are spending up to cap or saving money to offset losses. We are continually told that we are by the club but players leaving and players coming in doesn't add up unless we've made a bad job of managing it. Matautia has not been replaced and you could argue that some of that may be taken up with Delaney's new deal but who knows.[/quote:2lvyz0ie] To be fair they stopped NRL interest in Delaney. I spoke to Radlinski and he alluded to Knowles signing a huge contract (this was in March 2022), stopped NRL interest in Welsby And signed Feldt, Murphy and Sailor who look like 3 good buys on paper. Daryl Clark wouldn’t have been a cheap replacement for Roby Think saints fans are being a little harsh on the club, they are in a transition period after years of dominance, it’ll happen to us too.

Looking at the comments regarding Vaughn, he seems to be a like for like replacement for Isa. Covers a couple of positions, real competitor and will (eventually) bring a bit of leadership as well. I do think however, that we need a "big name" or star buy in 2026 to keep things fresh.

[quote="NSW":22p9hc6c]To be fair they stopped NRL interest in Delaney. I spoke to Radlinski and he alluded to Knowles signing a huge contract (this was in March 2022), stopped NRL interest in Welsby And signed Feldt, Murphy and Sailor who look like 3 good buys on paper. Daryl Clark wouldn’t have been a cheap replacement for Roby Think saints fans are being a little harsh on the club, they are in a transition period after years of dominance, it’ll happen to us too.[/quote:22p9hc6c] One of the reasons I come on here is to get different opinions, its balanced and nice to see. You make some good points but our frustrations are more wide ranging. Giving 3 year deals to Walmsley (old and can't stay fit) Lomax (gone as a player now) and then extending Hurrell after a serious injury and bigger than ever is beyond negligence. Percival is another who can't stay fit and we are going into a season with no announcements of Lees and Knowles yet when we all know Knowles is off. They wont want to tell us as its his testimonial year. To have 18 players OOC at the end of the season is staggeringly incompetent. This from the same club that used to make ruthless decisions, letting Coote go because Welsby was coming through etc. We've lost that connection with the fans that Holbrook brought in, the community stuff has gone. We have a media department that tells us very little and when it does, articles are littered with typos and errors. Its amateurish at best. On and off the field we've massively regressed (Liverpool women agreement apart) Don't get me wrong it always looks worse when our biggest rivals can't do anything wrong but there's a lot wrong with us at the moment.

[quote="TKOR":n8p89xfb]Looking at the comments regarding Vaughn, he seems to be a like for like replacement for Isa. Covers a couple of positions, real competitor and will (eventually) bring a bit of leadership as well. I do think however that we need a "big name" or star buy in 2026 to keep things fresh.[/quote:n8p89xfb] Would make sense Vaughan coming now. Can’t see a big name coming in unless someone unexpected leaves. Douglas is off contract (maybe replaced by Sambo?) Byrne is going to Wire but it’s looking like Hill will be the replacement (with McDermott etc back filling) Keighran is the big one, I’m not 100% sure Eckerlsey can slot straight in there but hopefully we’ll know during the year. Don’t think we’re in a place to sign a big player.

Agree with all of that. We really struggled against Wire's kids last year, albeit with 12 men. There's a post on Redvee that suggests we are essentially giving Vaughan a uni scholarship and other incentives. Not sure how that works with the salary cap but you can see why it has tempted him across. Edit: was meant to quote NSW.

Aside from all the Saints and Wigan rivalries, this move highlights how determined Danson seems to be to ensure Wigan keep being successful, not only in the short term but in the longer term also. Looking at what Stu was saying, it sounds like even more of an emphasis is being placed on getting the very best kids as well, so the academy should keep churning them out. I have no doubt if any of Wigans best players leave then we'll see top quality replacements brought. This cannot be the Maurice Lindsay era all over again due to the salary cap but having the finance to spend as much as is allowed and to keep bringing the best juniors to the club will make sure we continue to be there or thereabouts.

Stu, I'd be interested in seeing the "he's not all that comments" on Vaughan. I don't remember anything specifically relating to him but that's not to say there haven't been any. I think the comments have been more general and centred around Saints seeming reliance on the 'golden generation' and the fact that it's crazy to put your eggs in that particular basket. These signings actually go some way to proving that as there's two straight away who won't be having long first team careers at Saints (or however Mike Rush phrased it). Others may yet follow suit at some stage and then there's the usual ones that flatter to deceive etc. You mention the other side of the negotiations. Was this conducting them by message as rumoured on Redvee or something more?