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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Yes the defence should drift, watch the video. Sam Burgess starts off stood next to the post, he makes it to 8/9 metres out and is still pretty much in line with the post....had he taken 2 steps right instead 2 extra forward he could've reached Johnson too.
Sinfield didn't make the tackle but he cut out the outside option and let's face it neither Watkins or Charnley are renowned for their defence at times, he just needed those back on his inside to be there.'"
So now it's the Burgess boys' fault. The best stepper and possibly most agile runner in the game against an exhausted 19 stone prop covering a massive defensive hole? Remind me, who was it missed his tackle?
The outside option was probably the better option - Charnley and Watkins had defended at least 2 wide attacks successfully already by drifting, and had tackled well all game, and as defences slide the attack runs out of room and options. You're seriously trying to tell me Sinfield made the correct decision? In case you missed it, he got stepped and his man scored. It was the wrong decision.
This blind defence of him is ridiculous. I don't care that it was Sinfield - if anyone else had made that run and missed his tackle I'd be saying the same thing. You don't shoot out the line - ever. As we saw.
I don't even blame him for the loss. England should never have been in that position, and his performance far outweighs one poor decision. But he still made the error on that particular play to concede the try.
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| seems like its not just NZ rugby league that got away with a jammy result at the end; the rugby union team have done the exact same against Ireland. Penalty with 30 seconds to go and charge down field to score after the 80 minutes had expired.
Don't know what it is with sport in NZ and AUS but they just never go in and keep showing that desire to win right up to the final hooter; something that British teams in any sport seem to lack. The focus and ability to keep going for the entire duration of the game.
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| Quote ="Cronus"So now it's the Burgess boys' fault. The best stepper and possibly most agile runner in the game against an exhausted 19 stone prop covering a massive defensive hole? Remind me, who was it missed his tackle?
The outside option was probably the better option - Charnley and Watkins had defended at least 2 wide attacks successfully already by drifting, and had tackled well all game, and as defences slide the attack runs out of room and options. You're seriously trying to tell me Sinfield made the correct decision? In case you missed it, he got stepped and his man scored. It was the wrong decision.
This blind defence of him is ridiculous. I don't care that it was Sinfield - if anyone else had made that run and missed his tackle I'd be saying the same thing. You don't shoot out the line - ever. As we saw.
I don't even blame him for the loss. England should never have been in that position, and his performance far outweighs one poor decision. But he still made the error on that particular play to concede the try.'"
Not saying It was the correct decision, merely pointing out that it didn't have to be a fatal one if George makes the tackle. Yes he may be 19 stone but he was on the pitch for 33mins in spells (Sinfield 80) and completed 20 tackles (Sinfield 30).
All I've done is look at the key talking point again and noted their was more to it than just Sinfield missing. You seem to not be able to accept this which is fine but still what I've pointed out is there in the video.
Sometimes you can shoot out, Watkins did it a few times against Inglis in the first match, the mistake comes when you do it and get no where close. Sinfield actually got close enough to tackle him that's where he really went wrong, the missed tackle not the charge out but as I pointed out their was one back up defender who missed too and another one who could've possibly reached had he stepped more to the right instead of forward.
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| Quote ="CodeXIIINotXV"seems like its not just NZ rugby league that got away with a jammy result at the end; the rugby union team have done the exact same against Ireland. Penalty with 30 seconds to go and charge down field to score after the 80 minutes had expired.
Don't know what it is with sport in NZ and AUS but they just never go in and keep showing that desire to win right up to the final hooter; something that British teams in any sport seem to lack. The focus and ability to keep going for the entire duration of the game.'"
They rarely accept defeat in this hemisphere.....I remember years and years of the BBC sports personality of the year being a runner up.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Not saying It was the correct decision, merely pointing out that it didn't have to be a fatal one if George makes the tackle. Yes he may be 19 stone but he was on the pitch for 33mins in spells (Sinfield 80) and completed 20 tackles (Sinfield 30).
All I've done is look at the key talking point again and noted their was more to it than just Sinfield missing. You seem to not be able to accept this which is fine but still what I've pointed out is there in the video.
Sometimes you can shoot out, Watkins did it a few times against Inglis in the first match, the mistake comes when you do it and get no where close. Sinfield actually got close enough to tackle him that's where he really went wrong, the missed tackle not the charge out but as I pointed out their was one back up defender who missed too and another one who could've possibly reached had he stepped more to the right instead of forward.'"
I accept there was more to it - but had Sinfield held the line with the others there would have been no need for anything else to it. As soon as he went full pelt he left George Burgess horribly exposed against probably the best stepper in the competition. He missed the tackle precisely because he charged out - he was travelling too quickly to react and was exposed 1-on-1. And no he didn't get close enough to make the tackle, as proven by him being stepped.
Comparing G Burgess's work rate with Sinfield is irrelevant - he's a completely different player with a different role, different conditioning, pace, agility, body mass, fitness, etc. I've already acknowledged he moved up too slowly - but I doubt that would have made much difference with the size of the defensive hole. He's not an 80 minute player and he's not conditioned to be.
As for Sam Burgess - he was 2 men down the defensive line from Sinfield. You simply cannot use him a an excuse. He did what an A marker should do, and actually did drift to his right from under the crossbar to just outside the posts. George was the one slightly out of position when Sinfield missed his tackle. You're clutching at straws bringing Sam anywhere near this. And actually had George moved straight in at speed Johnson wouldn't have had to step anyone to score, he'd have been straight through.
Shooting out the line is always a huge gamble. It drives me mad when wingers do it thinking they can stifle an overlap - when it reality the touchline is their best friend. Watkins used great judgement and timing against Inglis but few coaches would recommend it as policy. Missing a tackle like that can be fatal 80 metres up the pitch, never mind on your own line.
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| Quote ="Cronus"I accept there was more to it - but had Sinfield held the line with the others there would have been no need for anything else to it. As soon as he went full pelt he left George Burgess horribly exposed against probably the best stepper in the competition. He missed the tackle precisely because he charged out - he was travelling too quickly to react and was exposed 1-on-1. And no he didn't get close enough to make the tackle, as proven by him being stepped.
Comparing G Burgess's work rate with Sinfield is irrelevant - he's a completely different player with a different role, different conditioning, pace, agility, body mass, fitness, etc. I've already acknowledged he moved up too slowly - but I doubt that would have made much difference with the size of the defensive hole. He's not an 80 minute player and he's not conditioned to be.
As for Sam Burgess - he was 2 men down the defensive line from Sinfield. You simply cannot use him a an excuse. He did what an A marker should do, and actually did drift to his right from under the crossbar to just outside the posts. George was the one slightly out of position when Sinfield missed his tackle. You're clutching at straws bringing Sam anywhere near this. And actually had George moved straight in at speed Johnson wouldn't have had to step anyone to score, he'd have been straight through.
Shooting out the line is always a huge gamble. It drives me mad when wingers do it thinking they can stifle an overlap - when it reality the touchline is their best friend. Watkins used great judgement and timing against Inglis but few coaches would recommend it as policy. Missing a tackle like that can be fatal 80 metres up the pitch, never mind on your own line.'"
You accept there was more to it but then discredit and make excuses to go back to simply "Sinfield shouldn't have shot out of the line on his own". The thing is......he didn't. Anybody can watch the try and pause it as Sinfield is stepped (which does mean he was close enough to tackle BTW, people don't step players who don't have a chance of reaching them) and he is on the 15m mark, Watkins 13m, Charnley 11m. All three are clearly over the 10m mark so no he didn't go alone, (if Watkins had been lets say only 5m out then he's probably got a shot of stopping Johnson but he isn't because they do go TOGETHER) the defender on his inside didn't drift across quick enough and only started hustling when Sinfield had been passed. So it was actually George who couldn't make the tackle as he was travelling too fast at this point instead of being that extra couple of yards across already.
And as all three go if Sinfield does hang back slightly then again on pause you can see all Johnson would've had to have done is loop one over to Nightingale, who probably gets several yards in to touch down not too dissimilar to the Johnson spot as, previously mentioned, George didn't hustle quick enough, the pass would've eliminated Charnley and Watkins out of the play and Tomkins couldn't sweep as he'd been involved in the previous tackle. So actually there was need to try stopping the pretty inevitable try that you can't see even though it was 4 Kiwis vs 3 English and George was too slow out of the blocks to make a difference if they'd have gone out wide.
Also you was the first to mention George's 19 stone frame as a possible excuse so why can't I state some fitness/fatigue related stats about the game? You do mention he's not an 80 minutes prop, I know that why I highlighted he played just over 30 mins in two spells. Sam Burgess and Graham both did much more minutes and more work yet were going around like machines still. And if you can do 'probables' regarding the almost unscoreable try had they gone out wide then I'll do my own. Had that been Graham or Sam in George's starting position that final PTB then they get across and stop him.
And probably is a bit harsh on Sam Burgess as A marker but point of order, NO he doesn't drift. He starts out just on the inside of the post and by the time he's 8m out he's in line with the post. 8m forward and 1m right isn't drifting when the ball is clearly going so far right from the posts with no black jumper anywhere near Johnson's other shoulder back towards the posts, he should've ideally been 3m right of his starting line in that time.
Before yourself and others say I'm trying to blame people I'm not, the effort was outstanding, especially Sam Burgess. I'm merely giving a description of a detailed closer look at that try. If you just look at things and notice the obvious and not the little things that's what those little 1% that people complain about go missing then wonder why we don't achieve them as much over here.
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| Difficult to criticise any player making a ' heat of the moment ' mistake as in the high tackle or shooting out of the line, however Englands last kick should have been better, but its all history now
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| Quote ="Bull Mania"Posted this on another thread, but it be better posting it here.
I still think the 1 per that cost us. Did we maybe try hang on to our lead rather than going for the kill? If we look at the last set of 6, Sinfield went for a kick down the middle rather than touch, it was an ok kick but NZ still started their set of 6 on the 30m line (i think). Should have been banged into touch, even to eat a few seconds up. George Burgess high tackle. Then the missed tackle. If we did one of them 3 things right or better, we would have won. There not the reason we lost the semi, there were many incidents throughout the whole 80 that can be picked. I'm just using them as an example of possibly why we fall short at the highest level.
I thought England were outstanding today, one of the most enjoyable games of rugby i've ever seen. But if we want to move forward from this, we have to look at the small 1 per. I believe we are as fast, strong and skillful as OZ/NZ, we just fall short on the little things. New Zealand have worked on theirs, and look at them now.'"
I agree with this. What happened in that match was that the Kiwis were playing at 98% of their capacity and England at 102% of theirs. That's why, in the little crucial things that turn a game, the Kiwis had the edge. They just had that little bit more headroom in what they were doing, were just that little bit more comfortable.
The Kiwis were still just inside their comfort zone, so could handle the pressure better. England were outside theirs, so they were always stretched.
It looked close. It wasn't really. Play that game ten times and the Kiwis win eight or nine of them.
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| Quote ="Steve May"It looked close. It wasn't really.'"
What utter nonsense.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"What utter nonsense.'"
And there we have it.
Slipping right into the complacent "we're nearly there" mode of thinking.
It was a truly disastrous result for England. It would have been far better to lose by 40 points.
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| Quote ="Steve May"And there we have it.
Slipping right into the complacent "we're nearly there" mode of thinking.
It was a truly disastrous result for England. It would have been far better to lose by 40 points.'"
Ok I've given it some thought, and i cant think of a single reason as to why a 40 point defeat would have been better. Please enlighten me...........
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"I should try to avoid letting you drag me down to your level.
I should not fall into your immature traps.'"
You should stick to banging on about how brave terrorists are, RL is clearly not your thing.
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| Quote ="Steve May"And there we have it.
Slipping right into the complacent "we're nearly there" mode of thinking.
It was a truly disastrous result for England. It would have been far better to lose by 40 points.'"
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| Quote ="Steve May"And there we have it.
Slipping right into the complacent "we're nearly there" mode of thinking.
It was a truly disastrous result for England. It would have been far better to lose by 40 points.'"
Serious question - did you go to the game? And did you go with a number of non RL fans as I did? I'd be interested to hear how a 40 point beating in front of a 70,000 crowd would be better than what was served up.
As one guest said - that has to be the best sport played out at the new Wembley yet.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"You accept there was more to it but then discredit and make excuses to go back to simply "Sinfield shouldn't have shot out of the line on his own". The thing is......he didn't. Anybody can watch the try and pause it as Sinfield is stepped (which does mean he was close enough to tackle BTW, people don't step players who don't have a chance of reaching them) and he is on the 15m mark, Watkins 13m, Charnley 11m. All three are clearly over the 10m mark so no he didn't go alone, (if Watkins had been lets say only 5m out then he's probably got a shot of stopping Johnson but he isn't because they do go TOGETHER) the defender on his inside didn't drift across quick enough and only started hustling when Sinfield had been passed. So it was actually George who couldn't make the tackle as he was travelling too fast at this point instead of being that extra couple of yards across already.'"
You've just explained precisely that Sinfield was out ahead of everyone else. Point proven. It may only be 2-4 metres, but it was enough. It doesn't really matter where Watkins & Charnley were, they're not the ones sprinting hell for leather and missing their man. They could still have reacted and drifted.
However, it's likely either Sinfield had made the call to rush, or they had seen him go fast and reacted. Either way, that decision proved to be the wrong one. As I've explained at length, the better option is to go fast about 8-10 metres, hold, and drift. Offer a solid line and invite the attack onto you, not a zig-zag of over-committed defenders with holes to run at, which is the worst thing you can do.
Quote And as all three go if Sinfield does hang back slightly then again on pause you can see all Johnson would've had to have done is loop one over to Nightingale, who probably gets several yards in to touch down not too dissimilar to the Johnson spot as, previously mentioned, George didn't hustle quick enough, the pass would've eliminated Charnley and Watkins out of the play and Tomkins couldn't sweep as he'd been involved in the previous tackle. So actually there was need to try stopping the pretty inevitable try that you can't see even though it was 4 Kiwis vs 3 English and George was too slow out of the blocks to make a difference if they'd have gone out wide.'"
Charnley and Watkins could easily have covered a wide cut-out pass. In the time it would take to loop a pass so far they could have closed down the touchline no problem. Only those with little or no knowledge of RL defences would think a try was inevitable - it certainly wasn't. You're showing yourself up with that statement.
Quote Also you was the first to mention George's 19 stone frame as a possible excuse so why can't I state some fitness/fatigue related stats about the game? You do mention he's not an 80 minutes prop, I know that why I highlighted he played just over 30 mins in two spells. Sam Burgess and Graham both did much more minutes and more work yet were going around like machines still. And if you can do 'probables' regarding the almost unscoreable try had they gone out wide then I'll do my own. Had that been Graham or Sam in George's starting position that final PTB then they get across and stop him.'"
It was mentioned in response to his comparison to Sinfield. However, as I've already stated - and I'll repeat myself as your memory is clearly faltering - yes, George moved too slowly and was out of position. But...and concentrate now...if he had moved up quickly he would have been inside Sinfield, who got stepped on his outside, and therefore nowhere near Johnson, who would have had a clear run in. Johnson actually only has to step George due to his slow advance! And remind me, who was it left him exposed 1-on-1?
Quote And probably is a bit harsh on Sam Burgess as A marker but point of order, NO he doesn't drift. He starts out just on the inside of the post and by the time he's 8m out he's in line with the post. 8m forward and 1m right isn't drifting when the ball is clearly going so far right from the posts with no black jumper anywhere near Johnson's other shoulder back towards the posts, he should've ideally been 3m right of his starting line in that time.'"
A metre drift (as you see it) is still a drift. Regardless, Sam Burgess is simply not an factor in this play. Clutching at straws.
Quote Before yourself and others say I'm trying to blame people I'm not, the effort was outstanding, especially Sam Burgess. I'm merely giving a description of a detailed closer look at that try. If you just look at things and notice the obvious and not the little things that's what those little 1% that people complain about go missing then wonder why we don't achieve them as much over here.'"
"I'm not trying to blame others [i but[/i...George...Sam...and let's mention Watkins and Charnley..." anyone else? Could you actually bring yourself to utter the words "it was Sinfield's fault"?
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| To blame Sinfield shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the game and the decision-making process in it.
Sinfields decisions wasn’t to rush out and miss a tackle or drift and defend it. In that position NZ were the favourites to score. The most likely outcome of that play was NZ scoring, they had quick play, numbers, and weren’t far out at all.
What Sinfield is looking at is space on both sides of him, the ball going to Johnson, Johnson having men either side of him and a limited amount of options. If Sinfield doesn’t rush out and hangs back and drifts then firstly he needs to know which side to drift to because drifing out to cover the wing/centre partnership would have left a huge gap on the inside, drifting in side would have left a cut out ball to the winger and a stroll in, try. England were in a bad position where whichever option Sinfield chose, the most likely end point was NZ scoring. A ‘shooter’ was the best option, it was the option you want your defence to take, it just should have been coming from inside Sinfield rather than Sinfield. The problem with that is a good run on the back of a good PTB had sucked in 4 men and our defence was stretched.
It was a patient well-executed set, against a tired defence, with on the back of quick ball, it would have taken brilliant defence to stop it.
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| Quote ="Starbug"Difficult to criticise any player making a ' heat of the moment ' mistake as in the high tackle or shooting out of the line, however Englands last kick should have been better, but its all history now'"
If there is one place we can apportion ‘blame’ it probably is there. NZ scored of a good set, they got a penalty from Gurgess’s high tackle but props make high tackles, it happens.
The Kiwis with secondds to go ran a quick, quality set of 6, twice. They didn’t panic they ran their sets as they practiced. When a kick to the corner, even going to touch 10-20metres would have likely won England the game, we didn’t organise a set to get our best kicker on the ball, in a bit of space to get a decent, not even necessarily brilliant kick away to close the game down. Instead we were panicked in to a poor kick from Widdop that went pretty much straight up. That’s maybe 30metres we lost in territory by not having that ‘close down’ game plan. That is something to learn from and work on.
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| Quote ="Starbug"however Englands last kick should have been better'"
I was bemused when the last tackle kick was straight down the middle for NZ to return it with momentum. Kicking it to touch or even dead would have allowed us to regroup in defence.
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| Disagree, running out at full speed always makes it easier to be stepped and with two props on inside they were never going to cover the gap. Running out half speed and making NZ player make a decision giving team chance to slide would have been a better play. If he passes inside the two burgesses would have been there, passes outside worse case scenario is they score on wing leaving a difficult kick. Easy to say in hindsight but if you are going to rush out like that you have to make decent contact with attacker, Sinfield stuffed it.
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| You also have to have confidence that if he does step inside you, that someone is going to be coming across to cover. Sinfield did. They weren't.
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| Behind Sam Burgess, Kevin Sinfield was England's MOM. He was outstanding. What happened at the end of the game happened. But don't call the bloke out for having been responsible for England's loss, however heartbreaking it was.
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"Disagree, running out at full speed always makes it easier to be stepped and with two props on inside they were never going to cover the gap. Running out half speed and making NZ player make a decision giving team chance to slide would have been a better play. If he passes inside the two burgesses would have been there, passes outside worse case scenario is they score on wing leaving a difficult kick. Easy to say in hindsight but if you are going to rush out like that you have to make decent contact with attacker, Sinfield stuffed it.'"
Spot on. By rushing in and over-committing he's made the decision easy for the attacker. If he had held his position in the line he then forces the attacker to make a decision. And yes it's far easier to be stepped running in at speed than moving in and holding the defensive line. If NZ had gone wide Charnley and Watkins could have reacted and slid, using the touchline.
It was a panicked decision which backfired. He should never have done it. Yes, had it come off and he'd nailed Johnson he'd have been the hero. But it was a poor decision and Johnson is too good to go one-on-one against while advancing at speed. The safest option was always to move in as a line and hold/drift, as they had been doing all game to good effect. England weren't dangerously over-exposed and a try was not a definite - far from it. Simple defence would have been fine. A one-man overlap is easy to defend.
And now someone says it was the best option! Clearly not, as he was left on his backside and Johnson scored. Shooting out the line is very, very rarely the best option. You move in with the line and present a wall of defenders. It's the basic backbone of RL defence.
As I've said a few times however, I don't blame him for the defeat. England should never have been in that position. Sinfield was superb.
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| Burgess gave away the penalty for the high shot and then missed the tackle that led to our win. He's not experienced enough for this level. Both teams were ordinary at times .. it's just we were less ordinary when it mattered. We didn't fire the way we could. Hopefully we will in the final but gee the Aussies look good.
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| Quote ="Cronus"
And now someone says it was the best option! Clearly not, as he was left on his backside and Johnson scored. Shooting out the line is very, very rarely the best option. You move in with the line and present a wall of defenders. It's the basic backbone of RL defence.
As I've said a few times however, I don't blame him for the defeat. England should never have been in that position. Sinfield was superb.'"
That doesn’t follow at all and highlights your misunderstanding.
The fact New Zealand scored doesn’t mean the wrong decision was taken, you can make all the right decisions in the world and still be scored against. New Zealand were favourites to score in that position, the fact they did doesn’t mean a wrong decision was made to allow them to.
Sometimes you face a patient well executed set, sometimes the attacking side make defending very very difficult, so difficult that a try isn’t scored from a mistake but from the quality of the attacking play.
England were in a bad position, Englands best option for defending that position was someone wrapping Johnson up. The criticism of Sinfield isn’t that he rushed out as the ‘shooter’ its that he was a half second too slow and didn’t execute the tackle.
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| Not read every single detail people's thoughts on the last play, but it's pretty simple, Sinfield missed a one on one tackle that he should have made. End of.
He's not the reason we lost, but I think some fans lovin with him clouds their judgment and trying to blame t
It on Burgess is ridiculous. He's a massive prop going the wrong direction to the worlds beat stepper.
BTW before I get shot down, I am NOT blaming Sinfield for the defeat.
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