I think that you are being extremely disingenuous towards Richard Lewis.
When he took over as head poncho, the International game was absolutely dead and he and his team came up with a structured plan to take the game forwards.
Yes, it included Catalan, who IMO, along with Toulouse have been a success but, I believe it was Nigel Woods who thought/ thinks that we can have some kind of transatlantic sport.
Lewis recognised the importance of international competition and he was right, without games involving England, Australia, New Zealand, plus the "emerging" nations and IF you take out Catalan, we really are left with a game played along the M62 corridor.
You mention the success of Magic and the GF.
The GF is a great success, although it has killed the Challenge Cup final and whilst Magic is ok, it's slipped well back from the idea of spreading the game into new areas and growing the fan base. As an event, Magic should still be moved regularly and it should be a sell out.
When you compare magic, say, with Union staging club games at Twickenham, we (RL) are miles behind.
Sadly, RL still has mountains to climb into how we can engage new fans in non RL areas.
Much as I dont believe Toronto is anything like a decent fit in "our" comp, they have done superbly well to create the level of interest in N. America for what is a "new" sport and they should be applauded for that and we should be trying to tap into their expertise in how to market and promote the game, something that we have been mickey poor at for as long as I can remember.

Mate, I don't fully concede your first paragraph, but I will take your riposte square on the chin. Points all yours for a thoughtful reply.

However I won't take your second paragraph. What exact level of interest has RL got in North America since they started? They averaged 6,988 in the ground last year for the few games they actually played at home, and a good thousand were there for the beer festival only, plus a lot of free tickets. Wakefield (5,46icon_cool.gif get more paying interest than Toronto do and whilst TWP still have several thousand paying fans none will come here. Add to that this "superb" achievement has come at a cost of £5Million with the deficit set to double over the next two years to £10,000,000. .......... Is that the expertise we seek??....It's not is it?

Its interesting as historically Sky was part of the Murdoch empire via 20th Century Fox but was sold to Comcast for a large amount of money in 2018.

Talksport are part of Murdochs newscorp.

This could be a case of people leaking to their old pals at newscorp to help drive down the cost of RL.

Then again Comcast might want to rationalise their output, and concentrate on a few key sports.

Baseball season runs for roughly same period as RL, and they may deam it cheaper to just fill the space left by RL with Baseball matches.

Have a gander at the maps for SL & The RFL Championship on Wiki, then look at the top 2 tiers of Union on wiki......and point out any similarities in the top 24 of each game.....that ain't no morror

Some good examples of the differences in attitudes in our games.

The final part includes a lack of knowledge the average RL fan has of the size of club Union the days. When you factor in the 10 Celtic sides, 2 Italian sides and 14 French clubs also, you see how dwarfed we really are.

And I can tell you now, regressing to a little Northern comp isn't going to be the answer. It'll be the beginning of the end.

This is, sadly, only too true.

I'd counter that plopping teams into random North American cities isn't either.

As much as the Troll in Chief, Jean prattles on about them, Toulouse would be a fine addition to SL. They have done the hard yards and would benefit from a couple of years "relegation free" as Catalans did, to cement themselves as a viable pathway for French Talent.

Toronto Wolfpack is the exact opposite of what we need. All TWP have has done is offer a wage to journeymen players and run a few fun-days with beer.....there is still little of any interest in Rugby League in Toronto and they have freely admitted that a separate TV deal or Player Development will not be happening in the near future.....so they deliver nothing other than a different ground to visit if you can swallow about a grand for a week away in Toronto.

Sadly, it's my belief that if SL do flog off some of the family silver to a VC company in January, you can be damned sure that Toronto (or Catalan for that matter) will not be receiving a cent. More likely, SL will shrink to 10 English Clubs, P&R will be put on hold for a decade and the game in the UK outside the top tier as well as France will suffer for it.

I doubt I could be ar$ed with a 10 team comp and the sheer repetitiveness it would entail, particularly if played out in half empty plastic grounds in northern towns. Toronto may not be the answer but they're far from being the biggest problem,

Ten teams doesn't float my boat either, and I can't see how it is commercially viable, it might work for Sky if they cover every game every week.

Whoops, you've done it again giving the guy the oxygen of a name check and the opportunity to reply to that and troll you again. Entirely up to you sir!!

Thanks for an interesting post but I'm not too much in agreement. Anyway the issue of a "viable pathway for french talent" was to me cemented by Les Catalans team in the academy, That came about what? 10 years after they started in 2006 with a remit to be French to bolster the French International side. But they never did bolster the french side and the the TEST matches we were chasing came but were a disaster and were abandoned years ago. The academy is now abandoned. As for their Superleague side look at the squad. If Casty and Yaha are unfit they can easily pick a full near first choice side with no French players in it and only the odd ones amongst the subs.

We were being told by Perez and all his apologists it'll take 15 years to see SL quality Canadian players coming through, yet the French ones are hardly coming through even though they have always had an established game and junior systems. Adding Toulouse won't increase the number of quality French players. Catalans already raid Toulouse for what they have.

Catalans have a team full of English and Aussies to be able to compete yet they don't at times compete well. What on earth are Toulouse going to do on promotion to be able to compete? If they play their championship side it will be slaughtered, if they follow Catalans then another dozen English players are off to France to form their team and another English club loses it's professional status.

Sadly and with a very heavy heart I conclude that factually a second club in France doubles the dependency on players from here and shoves an English pro team with a player development system into the Championship.?? Toulouse would be as damaging as TWP...... I know McManus trumpeted TO's cause but that was to avoid TWP, and since TWP got the shout it appears the french TV deal has gone. How do TO even afford SL with no rich owner and no TV deal either?

Toronto aren't the answer as they produce zero players and have no intention of changing that, they produce no TV money and cannot change that and they run up annual deficits into the $$Millions each year, as well as cause massive travel costs, and can't play half their home games at home, and won't bring fans here.

Apart from that they are "glamorous".

The biggest problem was pinpointed by Perez, we lack quality players and TV revenue. Hence he promised both but delivered neither and like mugs we fell for it and he's now lined up New York and Ottawa and still we don't call it out or chuck them out! Private investment was provided by TWP but not enough as their debts climb to £10,000,000.

The only place we really get the players in numbers is along the M62 and they are augmented by swallowing up every NRL cast off we can, so it's madness to try to bring in Canada, USA AND France who will all take players away from the M62. It's easy to be able to conclude what the answer isn't but the question is what IS the answer?

That has to be give the existing [upaying[/u fans what they want until not enough want it anymore, then pack it in. OR perhaps admit we're beat and switch en-masse to Rugby Union. That ain't the daft idea it sounds - several clubs started to hedge their bets years ago - harlequins/Broncos. Leeds/Leeds RUFC with Wakefield/Wakefield RUFC and Wigan/Orrel also considered.

Are you suggesting that the sport should wither and die ?
Without additional investment in the sport (and I'm not suggesting that Canada is the answer, far from it), the sport is going to suffer a slow lingering death.
Our inability to attract new fans toy the game of RL has been a constant for the last 50 years.
We have a better international program than 20 years ago, plus, Magic and the GF but, this is taking more cash from the same fans pockets and is just not solving the fundamental problem of RL being unable to attract new fans.

I am suggesting the sport does what it has always done best and that is to survive good sir.

In fact it survives ONLY because of the SKY TV deal. Would you like to consider where we would be had SKY or anyone else not bought the rights in 1996???

NA do not develop players or bring us TV money, France develop very few players and bring us no TV money - they likely have to go if the TV deal drops.

We are a corner shop who attracts a lot of local customers including the odd rich one, so we have to keep selling until even the locals don't want it.

That's the reality - and the problem is sending players to NA and France, and dropping clubs here for them to play in SL, will only shut the corner shop more quickly.

I'm a believer in letting people decide what they want to do and spend their money on, as long as 120K people along the M62 and SKY want to pay us money we provide the service but as for "expansion" forget it, the demand for RL is the M62, so sell to the real customers - don't sell it out to France and North America.

An argument bound to win everyone over.

Incidentally, I agree with many of your anti-TWP points. What I don't agree with is your seemingly blasé acceptance of a ten team league, a move that would result in the demise of two teams and not the one currently jeopardised by Toronto (who, if the critics are to be believed, risk meltdown at any time).

If "we" cant move the sport forward by either increasing participation and/or investment, there will, at some point, be no SL or any professional version of the game in the UK/France or N. America.
Like you, I'm no fan of the N. American experiment, which only has a future IF they can develop their own players - which is a HUGE undertaking and probably some way beyond the consortiums aims or controls.
To create junior RL with a wide enough base to support a few Pro clubs would be massive and there is little or no evidence of this even being thought about, let alone started.
However, contraction to the M62 corridor is an equally poor and short sighted option, which will inevitably lead to the demise of RL as a pro sport, as there are only 4/5 clubs that could even consider having any kind of Professional side.
I mentioned in a previous post that our best players are not actually being taken by clubs in France or N. America, they are being cherry picked by the NRL clubs and to a lesser extent Union and although there is little that the SL can do about this.

WE have to find new investment, new fans and increase the playing pool in the UK (and France) and this can only be done by increasing the games profile, retreating to "Yorkshire" and "Lancashire" just isn't the answer.

Your "corner shop" analogy may be accurate and yes, most of "our" customers are northern based but, corner shops cant afford the "product" that we are trying to sell and all of our aspirations need to be a little more ambitious than watching a glorified "pop n crisp" league sponsored by Londis or Spar, which no broadcaster in the land is going to pay to show on their TV or streaming platform.

Although I may agree with some of your sentiments, I believe that your solution would be terminal and despite my loathing of Toronto, as a "fit" for SL, I do believe that for RL, we either expand or die.

Toronto hasn't failed, yet, TO will never work, the same as Keighley getting a SL place, and there is way more RL tradition in Keighley than Toulouse.

Mate, Mr Perez said in 2016 Toronto would succeed by bringing NATV deals and new quality NA players into the game.

After he walked away 2019 McDernott came in and said to the media TWP would not be providing any NA players or NA TV deals.

Just how more "failed" can that be??

On the finances they have already lost $$Millions

Just how even more failed can that be either.

With deep respect it's a bit like saying Doncaster have not failed yet........

Thanks for your reply. I'm not here to win anyone over just try to take the emotions out of the debate and bring in the facts. I don't accept a 10 club SL, I just note that this time last year Lengegan & Co, were pitching for 2 x 10 clubs to come under Superleague control. I don't know if you remember that? I also think that if they play some of their fellow SL clubs 3 times now then they may play them all 3 times and have a 27 round SL. of 10 clubs.

The logic is if the SKY deal drops 10 clubs means the SL chairmen may not have to make up any shortfalls? I also remember way back Jamie Peacock calling for 10 clubs to ensure games are intense. OK none of this may be inspiring to us fans me included - but if the player pool is shrinking AND the SKY money is shrinking I can't see any way other than 10 English clubs. I'm just at the other end of the scale to those who think Rugby league is growing across North America and Europe and we are on the cusp of some massive commercial deals.

Whose currently jeopardised by TWP?

Thank you very much for ALL of your interesting post most of which I don't disagree with.

You believe we either expand or die but I do not see that relegating Leigh and shipping their players to play in Toronto which then doesn't result in a TV deal from Canada is in any shape or form expansion? Expansion is a bigger player pool and a bigger sponsorship/TV money pool. Even Perez said that!! So clubs like Catalans and Toronto are only "geographical" expansion and that means more travel costs and less away fans = lower gates. We need business expansion.

If say the game had taken off in London, Newcastle, Paris Perpignan and South Wales such that they produced an EXTRA 125 quality RL players that would be expansion. Say these five clubs all joined Superleague and French TV provided a TV deal bigger than their recent one with Paris on board and SKY decided to increase their TV deal on the basis of a bigger better and still good quality 16 club league, that would be expansion. But this didn't happen, we haven't expanded.......

What I would ask you to consider is that 70 years ago we had Leeds, Wigan, HKR, Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield, St.helens, Warrington, Bradford, Widnes, Hull and Castleford as our big clubs. 70 years later they are still roughly speaking our big clubs.

We haven't really expanded at all in 70 years ....But we certainly never died as a result did we?? ..................... I would respectfully suggest "expand or die" is an empty slogan?

Yep. Is British ice hockey dead? No, IMO. Even if British RL went back to being part-time, so what IMO, we'd still have some who would be full-time players in effect, as the best would be working for the clubs and RFL in some way. And some playing in the NRL, which i assume will be full-time for many yrs to come.

Rugby league has been played in Toulouse for over 80 years. There is a rugby league tradition in Toulouse.

Have you checked recently the average number of fans who attend Toulouse home games and the average number of fans who attend Keighley home games? Go and check. And in which decade of the previous century did Keighley last attract over 6,000 to a home game? Toulouse did it in 2019. Go and check. Because like most flat cap anti expansionists you are fact free and utterly clueless.

Did you see their paltry crowd v Featherstone Rovers in the Championship Grand Final Qualifier, I doubt you even watched it, but there wasn't even 2K on.
I have nothing against them at all, play an exciting brand of rugby, not full of imports etc. Let's just see how it goes in 2020 for them, before you start with your propaganda about TOXIII. You never heard of Cougarmania back in Australia mate ?, early 90's Keighley got home crowds of nearly 5K in the 2nd division (championship).

It would of been their biggest ever game too poor crowd shocking stadium not worth of been in super league

BOOM.......THERE GOES ANOTHER

Which country are you pretending to be in today Walter?