My point Sale,all them players uptil the semi has had a good tournament they and the rest of the team didnt perform to their respective standard in that semi.
I for one thought Young & Watkins were great as a partnership on that edge but they werent at the races for the semi.
As stated MM didnt lose the semi it was a combination of things.

I did not see any aggressive play from MM, indeed Samoa exposed his lack of fitness so much that even the commentators were asking for him to be given a breather.

I actually thought Tomkins played well and played a good captains role.

Welsby had a bit of a mare, but given he is not the first choice halfback for Saints that is hardly surprising that at international level you can't have a down week.

Watkins was a weird one, looked very decent the first 3 games but just completely switched off in the semi, if he was injured then it was poor of the coaching team to pick him.

Young also had a pretty average game whilst no big errors he made little impact taking the ball forward. Sadly 3 of those were on the same side and got schooled all day long.

The rest of the squad were fine but with such a weak wing they could not hold Samoa out.

Whilst Young had a great tournament. Like you said he had an average SF. However, he made one large error. Dropped a kick when under no pressure which lead to a try. Not blaming him for the SF loss at all but that was a big unforced error.

A combination of things cost us that semi, not one person. However, I would argue that we'd have been at least 2 points better off without MM on the pitch because he offered absolutely nothing other than a few tackles. If he's picked purely on the basis that he can defend then Radley should've started at 9 and Ackers brought on to exploit any tiredness around the ruck.

Quite frankly his inclusion in the squad was one of the worst picks I've seen for a long long time. Is he even in the top 5 or 6 9's eligible for England in SL?

You are quite correct that had slipped my mind. The more I think about it the worse it gets as I'm not sure any of the backs covered themselves in glory.

Makinson ran well most of the match but bombed a sitter at the start of the game, William and Welsby were both a step back from their previous form.

If one of the back line has a better game, then we win. For them all to be off at the same time was maddening.

Let's face it, we pretty much did everything wrong on Saturday and Samoa still only just squeaked past us. A repeat of anything like our PNG performance or the first game against Samoa and I think we win the game with a bit to spare.

The frustrating thing is we know we're good enough to be in that final, we just didn't execute. Would we have beaten the Aussies? Tough call, but I honestly think we'd have got closer than Samoa will (cue Samoans now beating them and me looking rather foolish

).

So there are some big questions to answer for 2025.

Pack - Can we keep big Tom fit and firing for another 3 years and will Walmsley still be going strong by then to add a bit of size to replace the likes of Hill.
Who of the next generation can fill the void left by Whitehead?

What will be the spine options? Tomkins will be long gone, no Lomax, Sneyd, MM (unless Wane still around in which case who knows!

).

Backs - No Hall, Watkins, Makinson (you'd think).

What names are we throwing into the hat? Dodd, Murphy, Gannon.....

Maybe a back 5 of Welsby, Young, Farnworth, Newman, Murphy looks fairly likely based on players I can think of? Anyone else obvious I'm missing?

Looking forward to see how Tyler Dupree develops at Salford. Got size, pace & good hands and think he's got massive potential.

My only gripe with selection was Watkins at centre. This is international rugby league. You cant have a centre whos slower than my dead nan there who also takes 2 weeks to turn around.. He was woefully found out against Samoa. If Percival was playing, we win that game no danger

I almost agree with you there LeBron. KW was one of the form 2nd rows in SL and deserved a squad place in that position. The unfortunate injuries to Percival and Newman meant he was moved into his old position and TBF to him he did an admirable job until the semi. Looks like he was carrying an injury as well so I think he can be cut some slack (although he made a horlicks of the bombed try). And as your mate Konrad found out last season, Tim Lafai is a fair old handful.



The choices at 1,7 & 9 were far more contentious for me and where Wane dropped a major b0ll0ck.

Watkins was concussed very recently and I wonder if that influenced his performance in the semi. He certainly didn't look the same player as in previous games in the tournament.

I think we can all agree that a lot of players made mistakes and taken together that caused the defeat. If any one of those don't happen we win the game. It was a bit of a perfect storm.

I don't have a problem with any of the selections apart from maybe MM at hooker. As has been said already he doesn't really offer any threat from dummy half. I understand the point about his defence maybe being important to take the sting out of the bigger packs but this didn't really work in the semi. Ackers to me looks ok behind a pack that's winning the ruck but not sure about if it's on the back foot. We've gone from having lots of top class options at hooker to virtually none and that's a concern given how fundamental that position is nowadays.

Hopefully the emergency of Dodd, Murphy, Newman, Pryce, Pearce Paul etc will plug some gaps as they mature

Pearce Paul? Newcastle are going to have to work wonders on him. I've never seen him do anything to suggest he'll live up to the potential we're told he has.

Totally agree with you as a second rower. Had a great season there. And I’m being harsh. It wasn’t his fault we lost.

Must be because he is a wigan player you think that,you boring person.

As he's a London product, I should be 100% in support of KPP.

Sadly, I'm inclined to agree with Saddened! He has a lot of potential. So do London as a club. But, in both cases, I'm not sure that potential will ever be realised.

(In the case of London, the club: almost definitely not.)

I don’t know. I could be wrong but didn’t he have a pretty disjointed season through injuries and having to fill in at centre? Times I saw him play he was a bit of a handful. Put him in an NRL environment and I think he will kick on

That s true and he has played centre sometimes where most fans think his best position is second row.

But not 100% if he is a Wigan product ?
Give him chance he is still young to think his potential could not be realised.

Agree with that, we had quite a few players in key positions that are at the end of their careers and could pull out the occasional good performance but not capable of being consistent all through the rounds. By the time we got to that semi final the likes of Tomkins, Watkins, Hill, Cooper and McLlorum had gone off the boil, the latter never reachd boiling point in that regard.

As for the emergence of the younger players it does look promising with a question mark on Pearce Paul we don't really know what his best position is going to be and Wane shouldn't have used him as a "work in progress" inexperienced utility player during the World Cup Competition.

Bring Nobby Noble back.

To be fair pack players don’t normally hit their prime until late 20’s early 30’s. Lees, Oledski, Batchelor, Knowles etc all have that to come. Pearce-Paul will develop too over there. Ryan Sutton may be in contention if he carries on playing well over there. Luke Thompson will be around. S

Young and Farnworth (if they stay fit will be starters again). Newman was unlucky not to feature due to injury. Simm may develop well over in Aus too. Handley might sustain his form? Dodd will have 3 years more experience at the top. Welsby (should he continue his great form should be the FB unless someone else emerges). Pryce (depending on how his stint in Aus goes) will be in contention. Lots to look forward too.

With Pryce, I agree, it depends if he gets 1st team games in the NRL.

If he doesn`t play regular first team rugby in Australia, going over there could stunt his development.

I wish we could turn the clock back. I wanted Ackers and Sneyd in that game.

We needed someone organising and in Welsby and Williams, we didn't get it.

Of the three, I believe Sneyd would have got us out of trouble and led us better around the pitch.

When you need a big play such as a 40/20 or a drop goal, I believe he would have done it.

On Wane, he made some odd choices and some odd changes. Why was Burgess off so quick and for so long?

Why did he bring MM back on at a crucial time when he was clearly under performing and knackered.

Watkins was not right from the start. I don't think he was fit to play personally.

I don't think Sneyd would have improved things, Williams and Welsby are pretty evasive if they get a little bit of time and space but they were playing on the back foot most of the time. With the exception of Burgess and Whitehead the rest of the pack were not giving us any momentum to go forward. Service to the kicker on the end of sets be it to Williams or Tomkins was pretty poor and it wouldn't have been any different with Sneyd, I think we got lost a couple of times and that last last 5th tackle pass went to our backrow forwards on 2 occasions, that was a mess.

Samoa saw that weak defensive right hand edge early in the game and got most of their points from that side. The whole England team just didn't raise the intensity of the game to match Samoa, Wane and the players knew what was coming but most of our experienced players didn't show much leadership and composure.

How many times did Williams get tackled with the ball late in the tackle count?

you would not have seen Sneyd getting tackled with the ball.

it's just my opinion.

England scored 26 points which should have been enough to win the game, we didn't defend well enough particularly on the edges. Sneyd would have made that worse. Sadly three or four players had their worse games of the competition.

If Steve McNamara can't come back to the England fold there is only one man for the job.

The master at getting the best out of a team thrown together on scarce resources especially in knock out football - he has the silverware to prove it.


...John Kear.

They should be looking to get prize him off Widnes and Wales.