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Of course there is a level of violence that would warrant a criminal prosecution, but this wasn't it. Bear in mind that once the first prosecution happens the lawyers will scent blood and push for every minor contact to be subject to legal action. It wouldn't be long before no contact sport is played due to the risk of litigation.
So before people call for Flower to be prosecuted, you might want to step back and think of the long term consequences for the game.
Be careful what you wish for.
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Bal, are you saying that 1) you can contract out of the criminal law and 2) ANYTHING that happens during a game falls outside the courts' jurisdiction?
If you are can you direct me to the relevant authorities as I am genuinely interested
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"If it happened on the street Flower would be perfectly entitled to claim self defence and he'd probably get off with no charge, maybe even a well done.
The if it happened on the street argument fails because on the street what he did is exactly what any sensible person would do, eliminate the threat as quickly as possible and make sure the threat does not persist.
On the pitch, as difficult as it may be, you take the blow and smile as the aggressor walks off for 10 minutes or the rest of the game while your kicker is lining up for two points. Had he done that then I'm sure Wigan would have won and everyone would be commending him on his restraint in the face of an assault from Hot Head Hohoia.'"
Lol.
I agree.
Regards,
Tony Martin, now out of prison. |
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| Quote ="TheScientist"Bal, are you saying that 1) you can contract out of the criminal law and 2) ANYTHING that happens during a game falls outside the courts' jurisdiction?
If you are can you direct me to the relevant authorities as I am genuinely interested'"
1) No 2) No
By playing Rugby League, especially contracted professional sport you are however entering into an expectation of physical and occasionally aggressive contact sport. You are not saying that foul play or aggression is necessarily acceptable, but that the officials of the game, be it the pitch official or the disciplinary panel, which again operate within the guidelines of English tenant law including sentences, which include match suspensions and fines are an appropriate body to deal with such incidents rather than the police. Simple enough. There are many sports that take that even further, for example boxing. If the world of sport and law took such a literal conversation of law on the street to law in the game, virtually all contact sport would become sanitised.
I clearly gave two scenarios, out of many on point 2) in my last post to demonstrate my belief that not everything falls into this category.
As it goes, according to the BBC, the police have indeed decided to look at the matter and so I guess we will have to wait to see the outcome of that. I still think they will say that the RFL dealing with the matter is appropriate, especially as there doesn't seem to have been a criminal complaint, either from the victim or the public. |
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"If it happened on the street Flower would be perfectly entitled to claim self defence and he'd probably get off with no charge, maybe even a well done.
'"
If you punched somebody that was unconscious on the ground, and the police saw it, provoked or not, your getting arrested and charged.
The law defines it as excessive force. |
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"If it happened on the street Flower would be perfectly entitled to claim self defence and he'd probably get off with no charge, maybe even a well done.
'"
The target was already neutralized. You never do a man on the deck. He'd have been charged on the street and rightly so. |
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In the space of about 2 seconds he threw 2 punches. It's not as if he threw the first, admired his handiwork and then followed up with another. He punched once, immediately dived on his attacker and punched again.
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I was pretty horrified by it but I think the fact that it was on national telly at a showpiece event causing way more controversy than would be usual is the saddest thing about it. I say this with the knowledge that the 'victim' has tried to brush it off and has forgiven it. Lance elbowed him in the mush and the first 'standing' punch is almost universally accepted as legit by people in RL. I have some sympathy with Barnacle Bill's point about the speed at which it happened - a massive rush of blood, against the rules, stupid etc but punishment should stay within the sport in my opinion.
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| Quote ="Bal"No were near bad enough for police intervention, and the RFL Rules of Conduct make that clear. Nor speaking more generally have I seen an incident that would warrant police intervention. Indeed, you could assault the referee, and it would still not constitute a police intervention, as distasteful as that is.
If you play a physical sport in an emotional atmosphere, which the Grand Final certainly was, even without a contract that says so (which there is), you are by definition consenting to been governed by the rules of the sport. Indeed, if you read the guidelines by the RFL, you will see that it is in line with the tenants of English law, in other words, authority is with the RFL and not the police to both police participants on the day and also to "sentence" them afterwards. It is only when this was an out of game action, not defined by the guidelines (which Flowers's incident is), for example a deliberate premeditated attempt at somebodies life, or putting public safety at risk that it would fall outside of the RFL authority. Indeed, apart from on here, this will not have been even considered is my bet.
None of this takes away from the fact it was a truly shocking and thuggish act, for which I hope we see the maximum ban (8 games, Grade E) and associated fine.'"
Anything outside what one could reasonably expect as a part of RL could not have been consented to as part of the rules of the sport. Things that happen on the field arent outside the law, simply affected by it.
This has been considered by GMP. I have no doubt that a very strong argument could be made for prosecuting Flower on the point of law. I have no doubt that if Hohaia had said he wanted it moving forward it would have done.
I question right now the point of doing so and with no one wanting to, i cant see that it will. |
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Are those calling for some sort of criminal action, doing so on the basis that he has committed an offence which is outside of the guidelines of the sport?.... If so, it sets a dangerous precedent for ALL sports, not just RL.
Take boxing, a sport which, arguably, is based on controlled violence.... Any breach of that 'control', a punch below the belt, a punch after the bell, leading with the head, etc, could easily be construed as an assault similar to Flower's on Saturday night.
Flower's was a moment of madness, but it was a moment that happens occasionally in sport.... Personally, I wouldn't like any sportsman to be put in any court and judged by anybody, with no experience of what its like to have the adrenaline flowing in a high pressure sporting situation and that's what we risk exposing Flower to.
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Anyone condoning this needs to have a think if this was your son playing and this happened to him what course of action would you take?.....would you be saying its a rugby incident.
I for one think it should be a season ban.
yes plenty of punches are thrown on game day but that was a blatant punch on someone not attempting to defend himself. These are trained athletes who should be able to control there aggression.
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"Anyone condoning this"
It's like people manage to browse this forum with their eyes shut.
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Prosecuting a player through the legal system isn't unheard of in RL. Ellery Hanley once took action against Andy Dannett after having his jaw broken by a punch in a Hull v Leeds fixture.
I'd have been very confident that Hohai too would have gone down the same route if he'd received any injuries which required an operation and lengthy recovery time.
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Just a point on all this "Hohia had the first punch coming, he was the aggressor" business - can I assume that everyone saying that is absolutely certain that the first act of aggression wasn't what I thought I saw - namely Flower swinging his arm into the back of Hohia's head as he ran past? It's just if we're going to go defending any action shouldn't it really be the little guy who got slotted by a cowardly shot on the back of the head by a much bigger man and then, quite understandably, went after him?
I only ask because reading some of the nonsense on here you'd think that Hohia just decided out of nowhere to attack a prop for no reason and that made the first punch legit.
In short, Flower created the situation, he started it, he finished and there's no cojent reason for defending the first punch - which under current rules is as clear a red card as you're likely to see.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior""Anyone condoning this"
It's like people manage to browse this forum with their eyes shut.'"
You've obviously forgotten that on here any call for proportionality, rationality, reasonable punishment, compassion, etc. automatically means you condone violence and that Ben Flower should be given a medal. |
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The police and CPS have said they prefer a sport's disciplinary body to deal with these sorts of incidents. Partly because of the inevitable grey areas, partly because disciplinary bodies can often impose tougher punishments than the courts.
The police and CPS see their role as monitoring the actions taken by disciplinary bodies to be satisfied that they are imposing sufficiently tough punishments. If they're satisfied they decide that its not in the public interest to prosecute.
Hence we have the situation where the police and CPS are having meetings with the RFL and St Helens. It appears that some sort of negotiating process is taking place to decide "what's the minimum ban that Flower should receive to avoid a prosecution?"
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| Quote ="Cibaman"The police and CPS have said they prefer a sport's disciplinary body to deal with these sorts of incidents. Partly because of the inevitable grey areas, partly because disciplinary bodies can often impose tougher punishments than the courts.
The police and CPS see their role as monitoring the actions taken by disciplinary bodies to be satisfied that they are imposing sufficiently tough punishments. If they're satisfied they decide that its not in the public interest to prosecute.
Hence we have the situation where the police and CPS are having meetings with the RFL and St Helens. It appears that some sort of negotiating process is taking place to decide "what's the minimum ban that Flower should receive to avoid a prosecution?"'"
Thanks, that seems to be a fairly definitive answer. |
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| Quote ="BigRedV"I was pretty horrified by it but I think the fact that it was on national telly at a showpiece event causing way more controversy than would be usual is the saddest thing about it. I say this with the knowledge that the 'victim' has tried to brush it off and has forgiven it. Lance elbowed him in the mush and the first 'standing' punch is almost universally accepted as legit by people in RL. I have some sympathy with Barnacle Bill's point about the speed at which it happened - a massive rush of blood, against the rules, stupid etc but punishment should stay within the sport in my opinion.'"
You know what? I'm glad it was on national telly. First week in as long as I can remember that people in the office are talking about RL. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating of-the-ball violence as a way of promoting the sport, but it is a pleasant change that RL is the talking point, not some contrived 'scandal' in football because one player looked at another in a funny way. |
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| Quote ="Cibaman"The police and CPS have said they prefer a sport's disciplinary body to deal with these sorts of incidents. Partly because of the inevitable grey areas, partly because disciplinary bodies can often impose tougher punishments than the courts.
The police and CPS see their role as monitoring the actions taken by disciplinary bodies to be satisfied that they are imposing sufficiently tough punishments. If they're satisfied they decide that its not in the public interest to prosecute.
Hence we have the situation where the police and CPS are having meetings with the RFL and St Helens. It appears that some sort of negotiating process is taking place to decide "what's the minimum ban that Flower should receive to avoid a prosecution?"'"
Were have they said this?
Also, if that's the case, why did Duncan Ferguson get gaoled. |
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| Quote ="Ovavoo"Were have they said this?
Also, if that's the case, why did Duncan Ferguson get gaoled.'"
Cant remember where I read it, it was in connection with Louis Suarez second biting offense. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Anything outside what one could reasonably expect as a part of RL could not have been consented to as part of the rules of the sport. Things that happen on the field arent outside the law, simply affected by it. '"
Yep, and the occasional striking incidents, including shocking incidents like that seen on Saturday are "expected" (in that they are in the sporting guidelines) but certainly not condoned. These guidelines are generally accepted by the authorities to be good enough at dealing with these matters as they comply with the tenants of English law. They are a governing body. I expect now the RFL have issued their 6 month ban that the police will drop any charges, especially as the victim has not complained, but of course we will see.
None of this suggests that the acts on the field are outside the law. Simply the way we choose to govern those laws. Any striking of another player is technically an assault, and what Flowers did was possibly even ABH, but the RFL should be the governing body to deal with it. Any suggestion that police should deal with these matters is frankly nonsense in my opinion and sets a dangerous and completely unnecessary precedent for contact sport. Boxing would be done for. Clearly where an incident went above striking to something far more serious, then it would fall over that line as to be inappropriate for a sporting governing body to deal with and to be handled as a police matter. |
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RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init... 
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it! |
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RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init...
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it! | |
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Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init...
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!'"
It's full contact sport. Within the strict definition of the law every ruck is an assault. Players are going out on the pitch to crash into each other, with the best will in the world it is inevitable that aggression will sometimes spill over, that's why we have a disciplinary process in the first place. Far from 'a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time', Flower is now a marked man and every referee will be watching him for the slightest transgression, while every opponent will be trying to wind him up to get him to react.
The disciplinary panel have punished him. If the police start getting involved the lawyers will follow and the sport (and every other contact sport) will be done for.
You are watching a full contact sport where players are expected to crash into each other, and complaining that it's violent. Now [uthat[/u is utterly ridiculous. |
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Quote ="knockersbumpMKII"RFL gave out just about the right sentence, they must now follow up and look at how coaches are inciting violence/recklessness within the sport.
That said, listening to many on here explains why our society is so furked up..you don't have to go out on a Fri/Sat night to smash someone in the face and worry about attention from the old bill. Just join a rugby club and swing away, after all, your teams supporters will say, oh bad form but it is rugby you know and 'biff' is expected in every game so it's totally legitmate.
If you get even the slightest whiff of a push against you it's totally okay to smash the living crap out of your opponent with such force as to lay them out unconscious before they hit the deck. But hang on, just to make sure, have another crack at doing even more serious injury to the prone, defenceless person..but don't worry because it is rugby league..the family game..the sport were seriously assaulting someone won't get you anything aside from a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time at away matches but many more telling you that you're untouchable by the law because it is rugby league and it's expected init...
Utterly ridiculous.
Have a look at this CPS article regarding Assault in Sport www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/cro ... me_speech/
One of the examples given was a GBH against a player for breaking a nose in an off the ball incident.. no need to fret though cos in RL it's all fine & dandy with the supporters, happy to sweep such things under the carpet and forget about it!'"
It's full contact sport. Within the strict definition of the law every ruck is an assault. Players are going out on the pitch to crash into each other, with the best will in the world it is inevitable that aggression will sometimes spill over, that's why we have a disciplinary process in the first place. Far from 'a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time', Flower is now a marked man and every referee will be watching him for the slightest transgression, while every opponent will be trying to wind him up to get him to react.
The disciplinary panel have punished him. If the police start getting involved the lawyers will follow and the sport (and every other contact sport) will be done for.
You are watching a full contact sport where players are expected to crash into each other, and complaining that it's violent. Now [uthat[/u is utterly ridiculous. | |
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| Quote ="Perry"It's full contact sport. Within the strict definition of the law every ruck is an assault. Players are going out on the pitch to crash into each other, with the best will in the world it is inevitable that aggression will sometimes spill over, that's why we have a disciplinary process in the first place. Far from 'a paid holiday from your job and a few fans giving you a hard time', Flower is now a marked man and every referee will be watching him for the slightest transgression, while every opponent will be trying to wind him up to get him to react.
The disciplinary panel have punished him. If the police start getting involved the lawyers will follow and the sport (and every other contact sport) will be done for.
You are watching a full contact sport where players are expected to crash into each other, and complaining that it's violent. Now [uthat[/u is utterly ridiculous.'"
WRONG, you need to read what the law says & understand it not come to some fanciful conclusion because you've watched Rockford files on a Sunday afternoon.. 
As for the violence, where have I made ANY complaint about 'violence' within our sport, that being the acceptable kind, go on.. crack on mcduff!
i played, I liked to give it hard, I had no qualms about smashing a halfback or a winger but I was always fair/legitimate (that's my nature) I took it back and plenty of that that wasn't fair or legit..I expected that all the same. BUT..there IS a line and when that line is strode over by a mile as in the Flower case then things should be looked at closely as to wether criminal proceedings be followed. But yeah, people like you will just let this type of incident and future ones go with just a slap on the wrist by the RFL and not do anything else about it..
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| Quote ="Bal"Yep, and the occasional striking incidents, including shocking incidents like that seen on Saturday are "expected" (in that they are in the sporting guidelines) but certainly not condoned. These guidelines are generally accepted by the authorities to be good enough at dealing with these matters as they comply with the tenants of English law. They are a governing body. I expect now the RFL have issued their 6 month ban that the police will drop any charges, especially as the victim has not complained, but of course we will see.
None of this suggests that the acts on the field are outside the law. Simply the way we choose to govern those laws. Any striking of another player is technically an assault, and what Flowers did was possibly even ABH, but the RFL should be the governing body to deal with it. Any suggestion that police should deal with these matters is frankly nonsense in my opinion and sets a dangerous and completely unnecessary precedent for contact sport. Boxing would be done for. Clearly where an incident went above striking to something far more serious, then it would fall over that line as to be inappropriate for a sporting governing body to deal with and to be handled as a police matter.'"
Well that is the thing. In boxing there is the expectation that you will get punched. But there are many rules and responsibilities around being granted that freedom. One of which is that the referees decisions are followed and safety is paramount. As long as those type of responsibilities are taken then boxing would be fine.
But if a boxer were to ignore a ref's instruction or were to kneel down above and unconscious opponent, that would quite possibly be dealt with by the authorities.
I dont see why people assume that if action were taken in an exceptional circumstance like this, it would be taken in run of the mill circumstances. It wouldnt. The only precedent being set would be that if you were to commit an exceptionally violent act within a sporting contest, outside of the rules of that sport, and beyond what is reasonably expected within that sport, police action would be taken.
It is actually no different to the principle you confirm, it is simply that you draw the line of 'serious' (as you term it) further along than what Flower did. |
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