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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"attendances were rising in SL pre salary cap
clubs at the bottom of the league are no closer to winning it than they were at the start of SL,
in fact at the start of SL we had 4 clubs capable of winning the competition,in the first 3 years we had three different teams finishing at the top of the league, and another different one playing in a GF, in the last three years 1 team has finished top, and they have won one gf, and one team have finished second top twice and won the comp twice
there was 8 points between 2nd and 3rd last year, 4 the year before that, and 2 the year before that
the year before that the team in 3rd won the comp,
Leeds have won 3 of the last 5 grand finals and competed in 4 of the last 5, St helens have competed in 3 of the last 5
70% of the last 5 grand finalists have been Leeds or Saints, 80% of the last 5 grand final winners have been Leeds or Saints, 95% of the entire history of Grand Finals have been competed by Leeds, Saints, Wigan and Bradford, 100% of of the entire history of SL have been won by one of those 4 clubs,
but yes, the comp is clearly getting closer and anyone really could win it,
try as you might to paint my argument against the SC is one based on self interest (which manages to make you look even more idiotic than normal) you cant get away from the fact that the SC hasnt, and wont allow lower clubs to build a champion side,
Champion sides are built from scratch, it needs clubs to sacrifice short term pain for long term gain, like leeds did around 2000, like Melbourne did 2001-2005
Getting clubs to invest and KEEP their young players is integral to getting them competitive, if clubs follow the Leeds model, they are MORE likely to challenge Leeds, as Wire found out over the last two years'"
if the salary cap was causing the comp. to stagnate then the crowds wouldve fallen in the past decade or more rather than more than doubling.
youll just have to get used to other clubs taking good players from leeds in the future like happens in the nrl. |
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| Quote ="vikings 4 ever"I personally dont like the salary cap. If anything it inhibits growth and puts an artificial barrier on certain club's potential. I wonder how many potential players have gone to other sports or professions because of the low wages earned by all but the players at the top. I would imagine that even some fringe SL players dont earn a great deal.
The Premier League and other European top flight football leagues are very uncompetitive (in terms of different winners) yet remain the most popular sports in their countries. The Premier League with no salary cap has somehow produced a league whereby 13 clubs are seperated by just 8 points and thats with the 3 point win system. Manchester United are said to have over 330 million fans worldwide, do you think they'd have that many if they weren't as successful? The stagnation issue doesn't stack up when you look at football where no matter what country you look at, the same few teams win the titles and the crowd numbers are still to capacity.
I guess the problem would be what would happen if we got rid of the salary cap and 1 team dominates year after year and there is no challengers ala Wigan pre SL. At least in football you do usually have a battle at the top even if a lot of the teams have no chance of actually winnig the title. I suppose its arguable how much the salary has worked anyway, I mean we've had 3 different winners in 10 years, the supposidly predictable premier league has the same number of champions in the same amount of time. Its not as if you could even talk about lowering the salary cap to give other teams more of a chance, isn't the slary cap in union twice what it is in league already. By limiting the money players can earn will just make the sport even less apealing to potential players especially in areas where football and union is already prominant.'"
clubs are more important than players.
players come and go, but you want clubs to be around forever.
the SC keeps clubs solvent (or it should) and it will help smaller clubs grow by giving them some success as the big clubs are limited on how much they can spend.
because of the salary cap the nrl has lost 80 players to Super League, at least 10, maybe 20 of those are very good players.
weve lost another 10 to rugby union as well and still the competition is very healthy.
its an exciting competition because every team has a chance of making the semis and even maybe winning the competition
with PL, outside the top 4 clubs, the rest have no chance of winning the title and never will.
waste of time for me. |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"if the salary cap was causing the comp. to stagnate then the crowds wouldve fallen in the past decade or more rather than more than doubling.
youll just have to get used to other clubs taking good players from leeds in the future like happens in the nrl.'"
why? what is your reason for thinking this to be true?
quite clearly there are many stagnant competitions in the world, where the same teams compete over and over for the trophies while the rest struggle that are growing off the field |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"clubs are more important than players.
players come and go, but you want clubs to be around forever.
the SC keeps clubs solvent (or it should) and it will help smaller clubs grow by giving them some success as the big clubs are limited on how much they can spend.'"
maybe you could give us one example in either SL or the NRL where a smaller club has won something based on a team built from players signed because they were released by bigger clubs because of the SC
Quote because of the salary cap the nrl has lost 80 players to Super League, at least 10, maybe 20 of those are very good players.
weve lost another 10 to rugby union as well and still the competition is very healthy.'"
they have lost closer to 50 good players, and that means quite obviously that the game is weaker because of the SC
Quote its an exciting competition because every team has a chance of making the semis and even maybe winning the competition'" no they dont, Doggies wont make the semis next year, neither will NQC nor Penrith
Quote with PL, outside the top 4 clubs, the rest have no chance of winning the title and never will.
waste of time for me.'"
except clubs have and do frequently challenge, it just takes time for a challenge to be built, Newcastle did it, Leeds did it, Villa are doing it now, look out for them next year, man city can certainly do it, the Big 4 wasnt a big 4 for many years it was a big 2 until chelsea and liverpool joined, and lets just ignore the year won of the smaller clubs actually won the PL |
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We have only had two seasons where more clubs are spending the full cap. We still aren't at the point where every club is. When that happens, about 3-4 years later we will see a much more even comp.
I do agree though that the cap does destroy world class teams and the days of ever seeing a dynasty will soon be over as they are now in the NRL.
www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,865 ... 14,00.html
[iSalary cap sees Melbourne Storm forced to let more players go
By Dan Koch
January 21, 2009 MELBOURNE football manager Frank Ponissi has failed to deny his club has been desperately trying to off-load at least two more members of its senior squad in a bid to ease pressure on its salary cap for the 2009 season.
Storm officials have contacted rival clubs over the off-season, including North Queensland, Wests Tigers, Brisbane and St George Illawarra, to sound out their interest in picking up the contracts of fringe prop Scott Anderson and winger Steve Turner.
Like so many champion teams before them, Melbourne has become a victim of its own success, with coach Craig Bellamy's starting 17 this year bearing little resemblance to the one which powered to the 2007 premiership.
While no one could argue the success of the salary cap as a competition-equalising tool, many within the game have questioned whether penalising a club for excellence flies in the face of the most basic principles of professional sport.
Having pieced together and developed his squad into the competition's most dominant force over the past three years, Bellamy has been forced to watch on helplessly as his squad was torn apart. [/i |
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We have only had two seasons where more clubs are spending the full cap. We still aren't at the point where every club is. When that happens, about 3-4 years later we will see a much more even comp.
I do agree though that the cap does destroy world class teams and the days of ever seeing a dynasty will soon be over as they are now in the NRL.
www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,865 ... 14,00.html
[iSalary cap sees Melbourne Storm forced to let more players go
By Dan Koch
January 21, 2009 MELBOURNE football manager Frank Ponissi has failed to deny his club has been desperately trying to off-load at least two more members of its senior squad in a bid to ease pressure on its salary cap for the 2009 season.
Storm officials have contacted rival clubs over the off-season, including North Queensland, Wests Tigers, Brisbane and St George Illawarra, to sound out their interest in picking up the contracts of fringe prop Scott Anderson and winger Steve Turner.
Like so many champion teams before them, Melbourne has become a victim of its own success, with coach Craig Bellamy's starting 17 this year bearing little resemblance to the one which powered to the 2007 premiership.
While no one could argue the success of the salary cap as a competition-equalising tool, many within the game have questioned whether penalising a club for excellence flies in the face of the most basic principles of professional sport.
Having pieced together and developed his squad into the competition's most dominant force over the past three years, Bellamy has been forced to watch on helplessly as his squad was torn apart. [/i | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"maybe you could give us one example in either SL or the NRL where a smaller club has won something based on a team built from players signed because they were released by bigger clubs because of the SC
they have lost closer to 50 good players, and that means quite obviously that the game is weaker because of the SC
no they dont, Doggies wont make the semis next year, neither will NQC nor Penrith
except clubs have and do frequently challenge, it just takes time for a challenge to be built, Newcastle did it, Leeds did it, Villa are doing it now, look out for them next year, man city can certainly do it, the Big 4 wasnt a big 4 for many years it was a big 2 until chelsea and liverpool joined, and lets just ignore the year won of the smaller clubs actually won the PL'"
how many different teams have won the PL title since 1990.
in RL in australia its been 9 different teams.
your point on signing a whole team to strengthen isnt how it works.
clubs get some from other clubs and some from their own.
the nrl is even enough that usually you need 3 or 4 good players to take a side from the bottom part of the table into the semis.
there are currently 80 ex nrl players (apparently) in SL. |
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The NRL has made a relative success of it's salary cap.
The RFL's has been an absolute disaster.
Take away the overseas players (NRL) and SL's finest were on display for England in the World Cup. How embarrassing that was for us!
The NRL separates youth player's salaries in their salary cap, for over 10 years the RFL and Super League clubs included youth players salaries in our SC.
In that time the number of British players in SL has gone down from well over 300 to around 160.
Youth players were squeezed out due to their salaries being included in the SC, the 20/20(25) rule which restricted clubs to only 20 players able to earn over £20k, then the threat of relegation.
That is why we've no Intl quality full back to rival Wellens, we are left with the best British wingman as Ade Gardner and not a player anywhere to give Senior or Gleeson competition for their Intl places.
We thought we had a good pack out there but they were seriously found out!
We are now so short of quality British players to compete at the highest level it is very worrying.
There are many restrictions still on the way SL clubs are able to recruit, train and retain players and I don't see any justification after the World Cup shambles for any of those restrictions to remain in place.
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| Quote ="Father Ted"The NRL has made a relative success of it's salary cap.
The RFL's has been an absolute disaster.
Take away the overseas players (NRL) and SL's finest were on display for England in the World Cup. How embarrassing that was for us!
The NRL separates youth player's salaries in their salary cap, for over 10 years the RFL and Super League clubs included youth players salaries in our SC.
In that time the number of British players in SL has gone down from well over 300 to around 160.
Youth players were squeezed out due to their salaries being included in the SC, the 20/20(25) rule which restricted clubs to only 20 players able to earn over £20k, then the threat of relegation.
That is why we've no Intl quality full back to rival Wellens, we are left with the best British wingman as Ade Gardner and not a player anywhere to give Senior or Gleeson competition for their Intl places.
We thought we had a good pack out there but they were seriously found out!
We are now so short of quality British players to compete at the highest level it is very worrying.
There are many restrictions still on the way SL clubs are able to recruit, train and retain players and I don't see any justification after the World Cup shambles for any of those restrictions to remain in place.
'"
Explain ? |
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I've never understood the obsession that so many rugby League fans have with creating an artificially competitive league.
Surely it's only natural that better run, better supported clubs will win things, and other clubs should strive to improve.
It seems to me that academy developed players should have their very own salary cap, maybe dependent on turnover. Therefore, clubs would be more focused on creating their own talent, leaving their 'other salary cap' to be used on signing expensive, talented foreign imports.
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| Quote ="declaration"I've never understood the obsession that so many rugby League fans have with creating an artificially competitive league.
Surely it's only natural that better run, better supported clubs will win things, and other clubs should strive to improve.
It seems to me that academy developed players should have their very own salary cap, maybe dependent on turnover. Therefore, clubs would be more focused on creating their own talent, leaving their 'other salary cap' to be used on signing expensive, talented foreign imports.'"
whats the bet this guy is either a fan of leeds or wigan, with an outside chance of st helens.
its always fans of rich clubs that are in favour of no salary cap.
selfishness vs good of the game |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"whats the bet this guy is either a fan of leeds or wigan, with an outside chance of st helens.
its always fans of rich clubs that are in favour of no salary cap.
selfishness vs good of the game'"
And it's always fans of rubbish clubs who want to bring the standard down to their level, without having to actually work and invest to improve.
Mediocrity rules man, mediocrity rules. |
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| Quote ="dally messenger"how many different teams have won the PL title since 1990.'" why since 1990? thats pretty arbitrary and the answer is 4,
Quote in RL in australia its been 9 different teams.'" thats lovely! is having lots of teams win a sign of how good a comp is?
Quote
your point on signing a whole team to strengthen isnt how it works.'"
no, it obviously isnt because it doesnt work
Quote clubs get some from other clubs and some from their own.'"
for f'cks sake what do you think i have been saying?
the salary cap doesnt help clubs build strong sides, it simply destroys them and stops the game evolving,
Quote the nrl is even enough that usually you need 3 or 4 good players to take a side from the bottom part of the table into the semis.
there are currently 80 ex nrl players (apparently) in SL.'"
or you could argue that the competition has stagnated to such an extent there isnt a great deal of difference between the top and bottom |
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I know the RFL aren't exactly rolling in money but IMO there should be rewards giving to clubs who produce an England international. Say 20k every season a player from their youth system makes the grade and if a player who's had international honours within the last 2 seasons and is then out of contract, the club who signs him have to pay a set amount in compensation, this amount would be the same for any international.
The only way around this would be if the team who currently hold the players contract cannot keep him due to SC restrictions he can then move on for free with no compensation. This way the competition will even up with the SC doing its regular job and strengthening the overall competition but still a large incentive to nurture your own academy prospects.
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| Quote ="Bob-Marley"I know the RFL aren't exactly rolling in money but IMO there should be rewards giving to clubs who produce an England international. Say 20k every season a player from their youth system makes the grade'"
You think we have rows over selection policy now? Imagine adding the accusation "It's just a way for the RFL to subsidise their favourite clubs" …  |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"why since 1990? thats pretty arbitrary'"
Was it not the the year the Premier League was formed as a separate competition from the Football League? Is it any more arbitrary than asking "how many teams have won SL since 1996"? |
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| Quote ="declaration"I've never understood the obsession that so many rugby League fans have with creating an artificially competitive league.'"
Not sure anyone wants to create an artificially competitive league. However the salary cap aims to create a competitive league. I guess many Rugby League fans want a more competitive league because it is better for the sport, competitive games are more interesting to watch.
Quote ="declaration"Surely it's only natural that better run, better supported clubs will win things, and other clubs should strive to improve.'"
The better run clubs do win things. The less well run clubs do not. |
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| Quote ="tb"Was it not the the year the Premier League was formed as a separate competition from the Football League? Is it any more arbitrary than asking "how many teams have won SL since 1996"?'"
the PL was formed in 1992
which means my answer was wrong and 5 clubs have actually won it since 1990
though i dont really think you can say Leeds won the PL in 1991 because it didnt exist, they won the top division which was division 1 |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"the PL was formed in 1992'"
I stand corrected. |
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| Quote ="SBR"Not sure anyone wants to create an artificially competitive league. However the salary cap aims to create a competitive league. I guess many Rugby League fans want a more competitive league because it is better for the sport, competitive games are more interesting to watch.'"
the SC however makes it artificially competitive,
Quote The better run clubs do win things. The less well run clubs do not.'"
we shouldnt have less well run clubs, we should have a league full of clubs which are run very well, each striving to be better run in an endless search for improvement and a competitive edge
if we did this then the SC would be needless, but in an effort to cover for failure we brought in a counter-productive SC |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"the SC however makes it artificially competitive,'"
It is certainly true that the salary cap makes the league more competitive. However I don't see how that can be described as artificial - it really is more competitive. Just like the rule about each team having the same number of players on the pitch makes the league more competitive.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"we shouldnt have less well run clubs, we should have a league full of clubs which are run very well, each striving to be better run in an endless search for improvement and a competitive edge'"
In order for one club to be better run others must be less well run. But yes the bar should be constantly moving forward. Which, of course, the salary cap encourages by stopping clubs from attempting to short cut to success by spend more than other clubs (and often they) can afford.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"if we did this then the SC would be needless, but in an effort to cover for failure we brought in a counter-productive SC'"
The salary cap allows the well run clubs to succeed as opposed to those who have the largest financial backing. Seems good to me. |
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I beleive that the only salary cap that should be in place is the % of turnover element, thus stopping reckless directors putting clubs in peril whilst also rewarding enterprise as clubs will be further incentivised to increase turnover.
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| Quote ="SBR"It is certainly true that the salary cap makes the league more competitive. However I don't see how that can be described as artificial - it really is more competitive. Just like the rule about each team having the same number of players on the pitch makes the league more competitive.'"
except it doesnt really does it,
and it is artificial because the salary cap as tool, has only one use take from the top and give to the bottom, there is no competition there, clubs arent earning this edge
Quote In order for one club to be better run others must be less well run. But yes the bar should be constantly moving forward. Which, of course, the salary cap encourages by stopping clubs from attempting to short cut to success by spend more than other clubs (and often they) can afford.'"
why is being successful and well run allowing you to be able to spend more a shortcut?
Quote The salary cap allows the well run clubs to succeed as opposed to those who have the largest financial backing. Seems good to me.'" no it doesnt, it doesnt allow any club to succeed, its aim is to make success transient, there are numerous rules which we could put in place which would stop clubs buying all the talent, there are many rules which would actually encourage clubs to invest in what we want them to invest in and clubs which grow their off the field operations should be rewarded for that, and sometimes a well run club may need to invest on the field to grow those things of it |
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Shall we snip Federer's strings or remove Tiger's putter while we are it?
Don't let clubs get in silly debt like football. If the salary cap helps this great. It should not however be used to give weaker clubs a foot up.
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Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Aug 2008 | 16 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jan 2009 | Jan 1970 | LINK |
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TO BE FIXED |
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| Quote ="punkasstony"
Don't let clubs get in silly debt like football. If the salary cap helps this great. It should not however be used to give weaker clubs a foot up.'"
See my earlier post. |
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Player Coach | 134 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Mar 2008 | 17 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Mar 2010 | Mar 2010 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
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| Milestone Years |
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| Location |
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| Signature |
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TO BE FIXED |
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Yes sir. I agree
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