if the RFL are going to claim that moving grounds mid licence is acceptable..then we are going to see everyone 'moving ground' for all of 5mins to win a license.

IMO Widnes should play at Wrexham from time to time anyway - have been saying it for 20 years (not non-stop, that would be boring and tiring).

Moving ' grounds ' is not the issue , but moving from 150 miles from the nearest other club to within 40 miles is an issue , the Celtic licence was given to South Wales , that is where they should remain

If the Chairman of Wrexham FC is interested in a RL club , fine , get him down and lets talk about it

Oh because Wigan RL having to play a PLAYOFF game out of Widnes last year didn't look bloody embarrassing...

Damn, I was really hoping the "I told you so" wasn't going to be needed but the writing has been on the wall with this joke since the beginning. Will the RFL ever learn?

Unlike me to defend a w1g4n fan , but hardly the same 1 game 13 miles away and a scenario that could easily happen to several other clubs , against an 150 mile ' emigration '

Sorry but I think he has hit the nail on the head. A lot of RL fans are almost wetting themselves over this.

I now believe RL will never get anywhere beyond where it is in the UK because really, in all honesty, the fans don't want it to. The excuses about it being 'rushed' don't wash because it was almost exactly the same when they were in the Championship....rumours about them being flown to games anyone? Full of Aussies? (just like they said about Gateshead)

Of course people will maybe say 'look at the Skolars'....and that is all fine and dandy until the Skolars should start actually having any degree of success...then the knives will be out for them. What about Hemel? They are doing things 'the right way' yet I don't notice anyone proposing helping this club forward...because they are happy for them to stay where they are and not threaten the status quo.
It's not simply a case of a club failing, it's the almost audible sighs of relief/glee from some that worry me. Well IMO RL will suffer overall from this because the game will contract, Harlequins can't be far behind after them, and quite possibly end up part time again played by a lucky select few. Who will then complain about lack of media coverage and why does Uniion get all the space. This won't matter really though because ultimately, what is more important is keeping it local.

Why is everyone kicking off? Gateshead moved to Hull 10 years ago, that's about 160 miles as well.

If people were wrong about Crusaders in NL1 (and I don't remember any such comments myself), they doesn't mean that they are wrong about Crusaders in SL.

Crusaders were rushed into SL. You can see the results of this. They weren't brought down by "flatcapper cynicism" but by sheer incompetance and over-ambition.

It's because of like you that Crusaders have had their problems and also Gateshead moved up too fast. Both due to this rushing you rabidly, irrationally and imprudently support. Your terrible rushing ideas have killed more expansion clubs than flatcappers, rugby union, Hitler and whatever other excuse you lot throw out

What a load of nonsense. Although there has been plenty of ill-will towards the Crusaders that fact has nothing to do with their travails. Unless, that is, you subscribe to a belief system whereby negative thoughts of one group of people can somehow mystically impact on the fortunes of another.

Likewise if Quins fail it will be because too few of the population of London are interested in them rather than as a result of the views of a bunch of curmudgeonly northerners.

All that seems to be happening here is that you are upset by the prospect of these clubs struggling and your personal pain is heightened at the thought that others might be relishing the idea. So you choose to reprimand them for somehow being the cause of the problem.

I agree with all this. I think it's tragic when any RL club gets into difficulties. Celtic are far from alone in having hit the rocks, and their location has nothing to do with it. You could add Doncaster, Widnes, Oldham and other so-called "heartland" clubs to the list of R clubs who, through mismanagement, bad luck or just local disinterest, have got into difficulties. There are 3,000 Celtic fans who now stand to lose their local club, and maybe a few thousand more kids who have started playing and enjoying the greatest game who are maybe going to lose their local inspiration and organisational centre. That's a sad loss for our game and would be wherever it was happening.

The amount of barely disguised - or open - glee displayed in this thread is pathetic. This is an RL club, with fans, with young players, which represents our sport, and there are some people here, who call themselves fans of this sport, who are so keen to dance on its grave that they're hitting their own thumbs banging the coffin nails in.

Bang on Steve.

Where are all the threads about Les Cats being slagged of because they're not from Oop North?

If you rush a job you will invariably make mistakes.

If you are as idiotic as the RFL and rush a job then you have a debacle on your hands.

There are no winners from what is happening at Celtic and the childish bleatings of poster like Johnoco simply try to cover up huge mistakes by the people empowered to run OUR game.

If there are 3,000 Celtic fans gagging for a RL fix (and I sincerely hope there are) then a Championship 1 club should be formed without delay to accommodate them*.

With that sort of support they'll be very competitive at that level and will soon be one of the strongest clubs outside of SL.

If there is local demand RL clubs will endure, if there isn't they will die.

* Assuming reports are correct and Crusaders intend to move up north.

I would put a lot of money on a lot of the same grave-dancers willingly joining in a similar gloating thread were Catalans to hit any difficulty. As for the questtion of where the threads are criticising Catalans for not being up north, you can search for them if you like, as there were dozens. What's more some of the same people who here are saying that they only opposed Celtic because of X or Y, were on those same threads opposing Catalans for X&Y as well.

What is truly misguided about so many such contributions is that they always suggest that they are in favour of expanding the game, followed by an explanation of how you have to grow things from roots, long-term etc etc etc, as if that is the guarantee of success, as opposed to trying licensing, franchising or simply creating new teams in new areas.

Yet there isn't a single example of that model of growth being successful in the last 60 years in this country, although it has been tried and failed repeatedly to bring about any lasting impact - (Hemel, Skolars, Sheffield, Nottingham, Lancashire Lynx, South Wales, Mansfield, Runcorn, Carlisle etc). Yet there are examples of teams being created and supported which have worked - Catalans and Broncos/Harlequins, despite difficulties and trials, have proved durable and are now producing results in terms of new talent for our game, as well as crowds significantly larger than the championship average without the benefit of many away fans.

So there is one model of growing our game which can work (Catalans, Quins), or can fail (Paris, Gateshead).

And there is one model of growing our game which has never worked in living memory.

And yet many of the contributors on this thread are arguing that we should abandon the former in favour of the latter, and basing this argument on the idea that the latter is a more likely method to succeed. It's bonkers. It almost makes you wonder whether they actually want the game to expand at all. Of course, you may feel there's no need to wonder about that.

I don't believe the ill-will of those who do not want to see our pond expand because it might threaten the status of their own little fish had any real impact on Crusaders' problems, and I hope that SL clubs are smart enough not to be influenced by such self-flagellators. But it's still very ugly and unpleasant to see.

I say again - this is a rugby league club, with fans, players and a network of kids, which is in serious difficulties, and I doubt there's another sport in the world where people pretending to be fans would be queuing up to laugh and point at the strugglers. It is a unique RL mindset, and has probably influenced our failure to expand as a game since our inception.

If Crusaders drop out of SL in two years' time, but are replaced by a Championship club in Bridgend or Newport that survives based on 3k fans and local talent, without Samuels, then they will be better off than had Samuels walked after them not getting a Franchise, leaving nothing in the Championship.

Despite the poor publicity there has been increased media interest and the Welsh national side has been promoted. Has Crusaders not been in SL this would not have happened.

So, even if Crusaders spend a year in Wrexam and then drop out of SL, as long as what has been set up in South Wales is supported then the RFL were wise to put them in SL and not leave them in the Championship.

Four issues with this:-
firstly - it is extremely disingenous to claim that "these clubs have failed to make any impact" and then list clubs that have most been created via top-down thinking. Half these teams bussed players in from Yorkshire to play their games. Carlisle even started playing home games in Yorkshire! That was in no way bottom-up.
secondly - I can't see how you claim that Hemel and Skolars are failures. THey are still with us and still developing the game in their areas. This is extraordinary considering that you think that Bronquins constitutes success.
thirdly - you overlook the fact that Catalans being in a French heartlands area was rather key to their success. How did this happen? Because somebody did the bottom-up development first.
fourthly - we have the "no true Scotsman" fallacy where you can deny that any expansion has occured just by being pedantic about the nature of what constitutes expansion. You don't deny that this kind of expansion happened 60 years ago and I doubt that you would claim that there were any heartlands areas without at least a semi-pro side. So what were you expecting to happen? If the "heartlands" area is expanded by bottom-up methods then it ain't surprising that it hasn't produced any new teams.



Only if you apply the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

If I claimed that Doncaster were an expansion team then no doubt there would be a reason why this argument doesn't apply to them. Or Sheffield either.

The fact that you need to twist facts to claim Catalans as a success and that you are desperate enough that Quins constitutes success should make you ponder for a moment.

Simple facts are Roy, you cannot build a house to last without solid foundations and then have the main breadwinner walk away when things go poop.

Quins with all of their potential are not what you might call a roaring success but Les Cats on the other hand are basically a long established club in a Rugby League area.

Hardly spreading the game outside the heartlands!

It may take 20 - 30 - 40 years for a successful Super league side to come from Wales, North or South.

Personally with what Belgian XIII has said I think it will be sooner because it looks as if a sustainable infrastructure is being built down there and only when that infrastructure is strong enough to provide players and fans in genuine numbers will we see a strong enough base for a Super League club to flourish. It still may take a generation to come to its' fruition though.

As Jimi Hendrix sung, "Castles made of sand fall into the sea, eventually"

!

LOL expansion-zi? It is because of flat earthers like you that we have a situation where a sport established 114 years ago (careful, don't rush these things) struggles to establish a team anywhere remotely outside its heartlands. It is because of people like you wanting to keep RL within a small radius near your house so you can get the bus to games that it is so ridiculously small when it should, if it was a fair world, be twice as big as soccer.

You can deny it all you like, the fact of the matter is a lot (a high proportion) do not want RL to do well except for their team and ones they view favourably. Look, the Crusaders going under doesn't stop me from watching RL, I am lucky that I am near enough to watch it but I will certainly stop fooling myself that it will ever get anywhere, or really deserve to.

Of course there are winners. Now the real RL fans can stand up and say 'we told you - RL is for us and us alone'. Maybe it is childish pointing it out, but perhaps you can't see it is the case.

Of course there have been and will continue to be mistakes....how did they develop the motor car? First time? Or did they make as few cock ups and learn from them. Good job RL fans are not involved in such a project, we would still be driving Model T Fords.

Things like the CC take time, even more than one or two seasons in fact.

I would point out that bowes' team is Coventry Bears so it is extremely odd to accuse him of wanting to keep rugby league near his house.

I would suggest that like me, he is sick of seeing expansion clubs fail due to stupid RFL decisions and / or club incompetance. If Cru had stayed at Brewery Field and NL1, I don't think we'd be talking about Wrexham.

Cars were invented by starting with a simple process and making it increasingly complex i.e. bottom-up.

The rugby league equivalent would trying to invent the Formula One car before the Model T (and failing).

Coventry Bears - another example of wasted opportunity. What have they done since winning NL3 a few years back? How did 'doing it right' help them develop? Because they seem to have gone backwards. Had the RFL helped them out with funds or something, you can bet your life there would be a queue a mile long slating them.

How long would the Crusaders staying in the lower leagues satisfy real RL criteria? 5 years, 10 years? 20? Until they won promotion? well how would they achieve that without being accused of 'RFL' favouritism?

Rugby League does not have the luxury of hoping that a bunch of players pop out of nowhere and suddenly are world beaters, it has to use some artificial means, if only initially. Almost all other sports did their developing years ago, RL did not and if it wants to develop, it has to start somewhere. Perhaps it's me that is out of step and almost everyone else is perfectly happy with RL being a regional sport?

Wrong, in the RL world, a car would have been invented and that was that. No need to try and make it better, it had an engine and worked so that is enough.

You are kidding.

If we can have the same format for a world cup twice in succesion, it would be highly unusual. Rugby league is the sport that changes things for no reason at all.