Again, we have lots of problems, lots of excuses, but not a lot of ideas to change things for the better.

There are various reasons why certain expansion ventures have failed but lets not pretend that heartland clubs are any less vulnerable to the whims of benevolent owners. The situation at Leigh last year is evidence of that. I don't think you could accuse David Argyle of lacking the will to make it succeed at Toronto, or Leighton Samuel of lacking the will to make Celtic Crusaders succeed. The latter failed because the business plan wasn't right and the finances didn't work. I'm not sure what "strategy" or "will from the RFL" you're hoping for in that sort of scenario.

But it doesn't do the sport any favours to obsess about the rights and wrongs of the past. It doesn't change the harsh realities facing the sport. The sport can't influence what the RFU and its clubs do or don't do and you need to get over yourself if you believe that RU went (publically) professional because it saw what RL was doing. RU went pro because it saw the commercial opportunities that it would bring. What RL needs to focus on is how it can change its own destiny, not what those big, bad evil forces were doing.

I mention players because the facts don't lie. Participation in this sport in the UK is falling, it's falling fast, and something needs to be done to address that. [iOne[/i of those things that can be done is to introduce the sport to new areas where there are potentially untapped talent pools - why can't North America be one of those? Let's get over this idea that our players can only come from the M62 corridor because the facts are that we're getting fewer and fewer players from those areas.

Yes, Toronto in their whopping 2.5 years of existence haven't produced much in the way of professional-ready talent, but that doesn't mean that all attempts to take the game to young people in other parts of the world should be consigned to the "can't work, won't work" pile. Toronto's priorities are clearly about getting into SL quickly, and that's there perogative.

And you know what? If this sport can offer young men from the North of England the opportunity to play and live in some of the most exciting cities in North America in their 20s (NY have commited to being predominantly US-based), then that's a huge attraction to anyone playing this game. I know I'd jump at the chance for a contract to spend a few years of my 20s in New York City. What an incredible life experience that this sport can now offer young talent.

For all the talk of "expansion strategies", the reality is that the RFL or SL isn't in a position to do that without willing stakeholders like David Argyle and Eric Perez and, given that it is their investment, its right that they get a say in how and where they run their respective clubs. If that is Toronto, Thatto Heath or Tahiti, it's their money to risk.

And the point still stands that the very issue of expansion is only on the agenda because of failures at club level - failures to grow audiences, engage communities and to reach audiences that sponsors want to reach today. It is they that have got the sport to the state it is in today and at some point, we have to start listing to someone with better ideas, rather than those who just want to talk about problems and keep doing the same things that got us here.

The bottom line is that EVERY club, whether they be in Toronto or Wigan, will put their club first, second and third.
The strategy and vision, although it can be influenced by the clubs (some more than others

) HAS to come from the governing body.
As for Perez and Argyle throwing cash at RL, you are right to say they can do as they please.
Is a transatlantic league going to help the sport, I'm still a long way from being convinced. When you try to contemplate multiple sides from accross the Atlantic, competing in Super League, regardless of the depth of Argyles pockets, it doesn't look like a "fit" for our sport.
Time will tell but, I still believe that, regardless of who may be footing the bill, the N. American clubs cannot play a full and inclusive part in Super League. Yes, they can find a way to complete a fixture program but, there still is more to the game of RL than just having someone to play against.
What is your dream / expectation from the N .American experiment.
How many clubs should there be from England, France and US/Canada in SL and despite the £millions being thrown into the pot, do you honestly believe that it will benefit the game over here and if so, how ?

The only way that the n American clubs would benefit super league is if they bring in players from America. Initially it would have to be mainly British and aus but within say 3 seasons they should be bringing through their own players (maybe some nfl rejects).
People don't play rl as often mainly because a lot of them don't know it exists. Having ru on free to view TV encourages ru. Having rl on a pay service doesn't. If we were to have 1 or 2 matches a week on ftv TV the numbers would increase

To what extent do you honestly believe that the governing body can influence or strategise this, given that it is reliant on the willingness (or otherwise) of other various stakeholders? The Premier League could "strategise" all it wants about having a club in Leeds, but if there isn't a well-managed club in Leeds, that isn't going to happen (although fingers cross that will change fairly soon).

And that's what I mean by expansion being the means rather than the end. That's why you can't put a number on what the "ideal" number of expansion clubs is - the number really depends on what is best for the sport. As I have said before, if we had 12 clubs that were growing and ensuring that this sport remains relevant in the national conscience, expansion isn't even an issue.

Whatever the RFL or SLE decides it wants to do and achieve, it needs 12, 14, 16 or however many clubs you care for to show that same degree of willing, skill and investment. It's clear as day that isn't going to happen because different clubs and chairmen have limited their investments and ambitions to different degrees. If the current clubs can't grow the sport, then expansion is a means to try and do that.



On what basis can't it be a "fit" for the sport? On what basis can't they be "a full and inclusive part" of SL? What does this mean.

At the moment we are two and a half years into this particular forray, so it's hard to make judgement calls either way. I have said all along that I believe the Transatlantic concept has risks, but I also believe that the potential rewards outweigh those risks.

Why do I believe that? Because it opens the door to new sponsorship opportunities, it opens the door to new media opportunities and it opens the door to new audiences. Will we ever realise those opportunities? That remains to be seen but I do firmly believe that without a presence in North America, those doors aren't even open. Air Transat would not be involved in RL without Toronto. Dacia, a division of Renault, would probably not be involved in RL without Catalans. If, and it is an if, these sorts of opportunities materialise into something tangible, that's investment into a sport that sorely needs it.

Expansion also gives us an opportunity to grow our player pool. The heartlands are not as fertile as they once were for playing talent, as evidenced by falling participation numbers. There is no rule that RL talent can't be found elsewhere in the world, and going Transatlantic helps us to tap-into those young athlete pools with what we have to offer (in a part of the world where we don't have the baggage of a class system that sees us playing second-fiddle to RU).

Going transatlantic also provides opportunities for our players and gives us something to offer. In a sport where many of the players are grossly under-paid and where we, until very recently, talked about "£1m games" as if £1m was a lot of money in professional sport, the opportunity to play in NY or Toronto is an amazing life experience and a big selling point to young players.

Toronto are currently reaching, engaging and selling to audiences that the heartlands RL clubs are woeful at reaching and engaging. Those aren't my sentiments, they're the sentiments of Elstone and if that's the message that he is giving to the clubs and the way he wants to take things, it needs the clubs to show that they can do that better than any expansion club that they fear will take their place.

If that isn't benefitting the game and being "a full part of SL", then fair enough, but I struggle to see what better options this sport currently has.

Would you care to answer the question that I asked of you:

"What is your dream / expectation from the N .American experiment.
How many clubs should there be from England, France and US/Canada in SL and despite the £millions being thrown into the pot, do you honestly believe that it will benefit the game over here and if so, how ?"

You mention potential opportunities for players and this is true but, these players would be taken from an already shrinking pond, thus adding to wage demands in an already cash starved game.

Sponsorship is the big question and it will be interesting to see just which companies show interest in the sport although the one huge difference between Perez and Argyle compared to anything we have over here is that, they do seem able to "sell" the sport and I do agree that, in this respect, pretty much everyone involved on this side of the pond seems to be left in their shadow.

I have answered the question. The problem is that you're missing the point in quite spectacular fashion.

This isn't about "how many NA / French clubs do we want or need". This is about "how do we get to a situation where this sport can attract and retain the best possible talent, be played in the best possible facilities and to the best possible standard?". So to answer the question, I don't know or care how many NA clubs we need - I just want the watch a sport that is as good as it possibly can be.

My argument is that IF expansion to North America and France is necessary to achieve that, then I support it. However, IF the heartlands clubs can demonstrate that they can do that, I'd be more than happy but there are two issues with that:
1 - There's little evidence to suggest that they can.
2 - The people arguing that expansion can't work seem to be coming to the table with lots of problems, but few ideas and solutions for an alternative "focus on the heartlands" approach.

I'll repeat it again for you - expansion is the means, not the end.



Anything that brings more money into the sport and gives better earning opportunities to players that have had 20 years of real-terms pay cuts is more than fine with me. You've convinced yourself that expansion clubs do not and will not ever contribute to the talent pool in the long term. With respect, I would say that's unfair on the basis of RL having a professional presence in Canada for less than three years. In the first six years of Catalans being in Super League, registered participants with the FFRXIII increased almost tenfold - that's more people playing the game, and that's good for everyone.



If there is ever an end of this flirtation with North America and the one thing that we can say is "these clubs forced heartlands clubs to up their game in terms of marketing and matchday experience", then that is a success in itself.

CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561

CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561

Quote ="My Mate Ronnie"CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561'" If biggest rugby league city in the world means average crowds, rubbish teams and not enough interest in the city for both teams to run an academy team then yeah, he’s bang on!

Quote ="My Mate Ronnie"CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561'" If biggest rugby league city in the world means average crowds, rubbish teams and not enough interest in the city for both teams to run an academy team then yeah, he’s bang on!

And yet more Hull fans watch RL than any other city in the UK so, yes, he's probably right

You mean like not having a joint academy, state of the art training pitches and around 18000 people combined attending matches?

Your trolling is really rubbish, better log out and log back in as Jean to respond.

Any tour or international I've been to I would definitely say more fans from Hull than anywhere. At Wembley, of the neutrals, it's between Leeds & Hull FC fans. If Wigan or Saints aren't playing you hardly see any of their fans. Last year, from Friday to Sunday, I saw 2 Wigan shirts.

Quote ="My Mate Ronnie"CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561'" Man whose job it is to hype up his sport's big events in "hypes up his sport's big event" shocker.

Quote ="My Mate Ronnie"CEO, Robert Elstone: "For me, after Sydney, Hull is the biggest Rugby League city in the world." https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ll-2768561'" Man whose job it is to hype up his sport's big events in "hypes up his sport's big event" shocker.

How many cities is the game played in UK

Three, London, Leeds and Hull, the rest are towns or villages near towns.

Quote ="MGarbutt1986"Three, London, Leeds and Hull, the rest are towns or villages near towns.'" you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield

Quote ="MGarbutt1986"Three, London, Leeds and Hull, the rest are towns or villages near towns.'" you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Kingston upon Hull is a town and a city We once turned back a King, but couldn’t do out with Fafita.

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Kingston upon Hull is a town and a city We once turned back a King, but couldn’t do out with Fafita.

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Apologies, I never knew. Happy to be corrected.

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Apologies, I never knew. Happy to be corrected.

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Actually a small city in Castleford.

Quote ="snowie"you will find Wakefield is actually a city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefield'" Actually a small city in Castleford.

Bradford,York, Salford, Sheffield, Newcastle and Coventry.

Salford, Bradford

Are they both within the metropolis of Fev.
You Cas lads dont half have delusions of grandeur.

Good God, I'd never live in somewhere like Cas.

Stick to politics old timer. Oh......

Sorry bud, easy mistake to make with your name, might be worth changing it

I support them alright, but have not lived there.