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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Over what timescale?
Seriously, you're not expecting to get anything other than a fog plaiting session out of this are you?'"
Point taken, over and out!  |
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Thing is though, we aren't replacing an imaginary mid season tri-nations with a game against the all stars, we're replacing a mid-season friendly against France.'" Which is why any all stars gimmick (if at all) should be in addition to, and not replacing international RL. We could do both. Or we could just drop the pointless all-star game.
Quote Be demonstrably and comfortably better than the next best team.
'" When did we do this?
Quote If they could qualify for the thing in the first place and ever beat anybody in it (let alone make a couple of finals like England), then I'm sure they'd be asked back every year.'" and how are the supposed to do this when we dont play them any more?
Quote No, hence why I said "same timescale" not "same number of games". Thought it was quite clear myself. Quite what results from before RL in England was even fully pro have to do with whether we play France in a mid season friendly in 2011, I have no idea.'" Ahh, so you want to compare 20 tests against Australia to 6 against France. And for no discernible reason we set that timescale, randomly at 11 years. That seems, well.... random. |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Over what timescale?
'"
Quote ="SmokeyTA"When did we do this?'"
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"icon_lol.gif'"
They are two very different questions you know.
The reason i was asking was because it was clearly obvious that we never have done, it is simply assumed.
Frankly nobody could say with any certainty who the next best would even be, it is entirely dependant on what team each country could be bothered putting out. Christ the look at what the Cook Islands achieved!
France, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, PNG could all have a decent stab at it. With the support of the NRL and SL put out decent, competitive teams who could all beat each other, and with with a bit of look scrape a result against England.
But we simply dont know who is better, and what they could do, because we dont play anywhere near enough international RL and very few nations and very rarely do they get the chance to play the big teams.
We need more international RL, even if there is few drubbings in there, not less, this game would be a nice addition to the calendar, but it is superfluous and certainly not a replacement for international RL
It is sad that the arrogance and disregard the ARL have shown over the years to international RL has spread to these shores. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"And you say you arent arrogant or disrespectful to France
. Eventually yes, they would. They have, and they will again.'"
I like how you've changed the question.
If we PLAYED (past tense), not PLAY (future tense). If we PLAYED France as often as Australia, do you think they'd beat us? With a team of part time players? I don't.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"France i think.'"
Exactly, and that was about 20 years ago, right? So we've not lost to any other nation we've played in about 20 years. But it's arrogant to think France (who haven't even been the fourth best nation) wouldn't beat us if we played them as much as Australia?
I do find it hard to believe that you yourself are complaining about arrogance anyway.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"That would be different. Not necessarily better or worse. Just different.'"
Nah, it would definitely be worse. If losing to Australia nearly all the time is bad, losing to England/GB ALL the time must be a lot worse! |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"icon_lol.gif
I like how you've changed the question.
If we PLAYED (past tense), not PLAY (future tense). If we PLAYED France as often as Australia, do you think they'd beat us? With a team of part time players? I don't.'" I think you will find you have changed the question. It would "if we had played" if you meant purely past tense " if we played" would still be the future tense. Do i think if we had played France 20 times over the past 11 years they would have beaten us at least once? yeah probably so. We have been pretty appalling at times and France have put on some pretty good results against, Australia, NZ and ourselves
Quote Exactly, and that was about 20 years ago, right? So we've not lost to any other nation we've played in about 20 years. But it's arrogant to think France (who haven't even been the fourth best nation) wouldn't beat us if we played them as much as Australia?
I do find it hard to believe that you yourself are complaining about arrogance anyway.'" Well yes, it is. It is pretty arrogant to think that if we played France 20 times they wouldnt beat us once.
Quote Nah, it would definitely be worse. If losing to Australia nearly all the time is bad, losing to England/GB ALL the time must be a lot worse!
'"
So losing 6 times in 20 years is a lot worse than losing 17 times in 11? |
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| Quote ="Offside Monkey"I would suggest you're slightly wide of the mark. When the RUWC took off in the nineties, the game was far from the fully proffessional sport it is now, meaning smaller teams like Romania, Fiji or Western Samoa, when fueld by WC induced passion, could prove a real test for the 10 or so core nations. [uA few years into the proffessional era and an experimental England team put 145 points past Romania (30 penalties, 16 drop goals, 1 try and 1 conversion, charlie hodgeson recording 140 individual points).[/u Now most of the WC fixtures including smaller nations are a formality.
Argentina and to a lesser degree Italy have improved, but most minor nations have fallen away.
[uEngland RL tonking France doesn't do them much much good, but it does England even less.
I'd replace MM with an event at Cardiff/Murrayfield that had a few fixtures like
England vs other nations
France Vs Wales
Cumbria/Championship England vs USA or other emerging nation
Scotland vs Ireland
Play the internationals on the Saturday, then maybe something like a club 7's tournament on the Sunday?[/u'"
145 points and just one try. How abysmal. 
Agree with replacing MM. Whilst it is a fun day, it would be more beneficial and probably just as entertaining to watch Internationals/7's than SL games. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I think you will find you have changed the question. It would "if we had played" if you meant purely past tense " if we played" would still be the future tense. Do i think if we had played France 20 times over the past 11 years they would have beaten us at least once? yeah probably so. We have been pretty appalling at times and France have put on some pretty good results against, Australia, NZ and ourselves'"
You think a team of part-timers from a nation not even regarded as fourth best in the world would beat a team of full-timers who have been regarded as second to third best in the world? I'd like to see he odds on something like that!
Who was the last team to beat Aus/NZ outside of the big three and when was that?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Well yes, it is. It is pretty arrogant to think that if we played France 20 times they wouldnt beat us once. '"
it's not arrogant at all. It's a pretty fair claim based on the strength of the two nations teams and past results in similar situations. It's not undue, it's not unfounded. And it cannot be compared to Eng/GB vs Aus.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand the meaning of he word arrogance!
Quote ="SmokeyTA"So losing 6 times in 20 years is a lot worse than losing 17 times in 11?'"
If the other side of the stick is winning 0 and winning more than 0, than yes, it is worse  |
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this whole argument is pointless.
until france has at least 25 players worthy of plying there trade in the SLE they will never compete with england in friendlies or competitions.
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A Championship select would beat France on occasion , they would provide a better test for the Euro Countries
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| Quote ="j.c"this whole argument is pointless.
until france has at least 25 players worthy of plying there trade in the SLE they will never compete with england in friendlies or competitions.'"
Apparently if we played them 20 times, they'd beat us. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"Apparently if we played them 20 times, they'd beat us.'"
at this moment in time i really dont care about france or wales.
because of the politics these day i really dont care about the SLE as well.
but england is different, from a sporting point of view i live for the day i see england beat australia in a final or even better to win a three match series after the spoils were shared in the first two matches. |
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| Quote ="j.c"this whole argument is pointless.
until france has at least 25 players worthy of plying there trade in the SLE they will never compete with england in friendlies or competitions.'"
until they get 70 or 80+ they are not going to come close! Hence why we need Toulouse in and why the French League needs to step up a gear and start producing enough talent not just for the 2 SL French teams but also for English and Australian clubs to sign as well. Same for PNG. Its cloud cuckoo land to think any nation that does not have a large number of eligible players playing in the top leagues of the world will ever compete with the big 3. |
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"until they get 70 or 80+ they are not going to come close! Hence why we need Toulouse in and why the French League needs to step up a gear and start producing enough talent not just for the 2 SL French teams but also for English and Australian clubs to sign as well. Same for PNG. Its cloud cuckoo land to think any nation that does not have a large number of eligible players playing in the top leagues of the world will ever compete with the big 3.'"
I think if they can at least field a team full if full time players then they can at least pull off the odd shock win (but not a consistent few wins). England can beat NZ consistently and vice versa, but both have so little depth in quality compared to Aus that it's still always seen as a massive shock if the Aussies lose anything important. |
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| Quote ="Wellsy13"I think if they can at least field a team full if full time players then they can at least pull off the odd shock win (but not a consistent few wins). England can beat NZ consistently and vice versa, but both have so little depth in quality compared to Aus that it's still always seen as a massive shock if the Aussies lose anything important.'"
Exactly, if with 150+ and 100+ top grade players Eng and NZ struggle to beat Oz who have around 250 top grade players, what hope do you think any team below these three will have with 20-30 top grade players, at best. When was the last time a shock win was had against NZ, Eng or Oz by any other team? There is no way in the world anyone is going to beat the big 3 UNLESS they have a large pool of 1st grade players to pull from. The only reason Wales started to close the gap in the 90's was due to RL signing some world class Welsh RU players to add to the smattering of sudo Welsh Engish players. Sadly, from an Int perspective, RL is a game where there is nowhere to hide on the field and the slightest difference in ability and experience levels is shown up in big score margins. |
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Quote ="Wellsy13"You think a team of part-timers from a nation not even regarded as fourth best in the world would beat a team of full-timers who have been regarded as second to third best in the world? I'd like to see he odds on something like that!
Who was the last team to beat Aus/NZ outside of the big three and when was that?
it's not arrogant at all. It's a pretty fair claim based on the strength of the two nations teams and past results in similar situations. It's not undue, it's not unfounded. And it cannot be compared to Eng/GB vs Aus.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand the meaning of he word arrogance!
If the other side of the stick is winning 0 and winning more than 0, than yes, it is worse
'"
you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? considering most games at the early stages finish news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 659704.stm and nobody goes to watch them anyway?
It has happened before and it will happen again, sometimes a team over-performs some times one under performs.
So yes, it is arrogant to assume England could never lose to France, similarly it would be arrogant to assume that Australia wont lose to England, despite the fact we have lost 85% of the last 20 matches we have played. We have shown that we can, on occassion compete and beat a vastly superior side in Australia, France have proven on occasion they can compete and beat a vastly superior side in England. They have beaten the odds before, and will do so again. It is arrogant and disrespectful to assume otherwise.
Similar to us, they need structural changes and some growth before they will start beating us on a regular basis, as we need structural changes and growth before we will beat Australia on a regular basis. But we dont just give up on international RL in the mean-time. |
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Quote ="Wellsy13"You think a team of part-timers from a nation not even regarded as fourth best in the world would beat a team of full-timers who have been regarded as second to third best in the world? I'd like to see he odds on something like that!
Who was the last team to beat Aus/NZ outside of the big three and when was that?
it's not arrogant at all. It's a pretty fair claim based on the strength of the two nations teams and past results in similar situations. It's not undue, it's not unfounded. And it cannot be compared to Eng/GB vs Aus.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand the meaning of he word arrogance!
If the other side of the stick is winning 0 and winning more than 0, than yes, it is worse
'"
you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? considering most games at the early stages finish news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 659704.stm and nobody goes to watch them anyway?
It has happened before and it will happen again, sometimes a team over-performs some times one under performs.
So yes, it is arrogant to assume England could never lose to France, similarly it would be arrogant to assume that Australia wont lose to England, despite the fact we have lost 85% of the last 20 matches we have played. We have shown that we can, on occassion compete and beat a vastly superior side in Australia, France have proven on occasion they can compete and beat a vastly superior side in England. They have beaten the odds before, and will do so again. It is arrogant and disrespectful to assume otherwise.
Similar to us, they need structural changes and some growth before they will start beating us on a regular basis, as we need structural changes and growth before we will beat Australia on a regular basis. But we dont just give up on international RL in the mean-time. | |
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as he said, name the last time any of the big 3 were beaten by an outside team. As the game has got even more pro the gap becomes ever larger. PNG with its masses of domestic players can't get close let alone beat one of them. Only reason Pacific Ilsands look closely competitive against the big 3 is due to relying on pseudo islanders playing in SL or NRL and they don;t have enough of them to really challenge any of the three. Best bet will be France, IF Toulouse comes into SL and IF the French national comp improves and starts producing more SL and NRL Frenchies.
Suggesting France won't beat England in modern times is not arrogant, it is simply stating the obvious.
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? mean-time.'"
HKR were full time in 2006 |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? mean-time.'"
HKR were full time in 2006 | |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? considering most games at the early stages finish news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 659704.stm and nobody goes to watch them anyway?'"
What a great day that was. Craven Park was rammed, what makes it all the sweeter now is the thought that you were sat at home kicking the cat every time Hull KR scored! |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"you mean a team of part-timers beating a team of full timers like this?news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/challenge_cup/4623013.stm or like this news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 040504.stm . Why dont we get rid of the challenge cup? there really is no point letting part-timers and full-timers compete is there? considering most games at the early stages finish news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 659704.stm and nobody goes to watch them anyway?'"
What a great day that was. Craven Park was rammed, what makes it all the sweeter now is the thought that you were sat at home kicking the cat every time Hull KR scored! | |
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| Quote ="Barnacle Bill"What a great day that was. Craven Park was rammed, what makes it all the sweeter now is the thought that you were sat at home kicking the cat every time Hull KR scored!'"
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How about we offer 20% of the gate money to the All-Star Man of the Match - even if it's a 12,000 gate, all paying around about 10 quid, it'll still be a lot of money for the player. Or, offer half the gate money to the winning team?
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or make it to charity and appeal to their more sensitive side!
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"PNG with its masses of domestic players can't get close let alone beat one of them.'"
PNG got fuggen close to beating England just two years ago. |
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lol no they did'nt....we where never in any danger of losing it
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The motivation will be there for the 'Other Nations' trust me who ever think's otherwise is kidding themselves (there are 2 way's of thinking about this 1 -it'll be many players only senior Rep jersey and 2- it'll be many of the Australians last Rep jersey ever).
For it to really benefit England the 'Other Nations' has to be as strong as possible
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