Too intelligent for me nah don't thing so, absolutely boring does it though, which I hope you don't find it too insulting.

I think you want to revise that before shooting from the hip, the one bit you got right was there is a Jacksonville in Florida.

Here we go again

Apologies for my USA geography, Brooklyn Kings are the New York side in their Northern conference



You say that "we" have decided that The Challenge Cup is a British only competition - no "we" havent, after all Catalan will still be competing, plus of course Red Star and they are a long way from the UK.

I am aware that some clubs dont run their own academies, more is the pity and it should be a pre requisite for ALL top flight clubs.

You say that competing in the Challenge Cup isn't a problem for the overseas clubs and yet, if we preclude them from the comp or blow our brains out when one of them makes the final, this is to the detriment of the game in both financial terms as well as damaging the games image.

Again regarding academies, you say "how they choose is their own prerogative". ?? really is this how a pro sport should be "run". ??.

You "assume" that should 4 current SL clubs be replaced by overseas sides, that they will continue to run their own academy and reserve sides and question whether I am aware of the academy league.
On the basis that there are 12 SL clubs and only 12 current academy sides, including 3 championship academies), it's reasonable to assume that there would indeed be a reduction in academy sides if there were 4 current sides replaced.

It's quite increddible that you say that the new clubs are "providing opportunities for these players", when the reality is that they are diluting the talent pool.
You know that there is a finite amount of players, hence certain clubs demanding a reduction to the numbers of clubs in the top flight but, it seems that if they have a North American post code, suddenly there are as many players as required.
Those very people who were complaining of lower standards in SL suddenly dont mind so much ??

Finally the million dollar issue.
You say that "we'll lose no money as we havent invested any"
Whilst I accept that there "could" be some additional opportunities with sponsorship etc, I guess this depends on who is sponsoring the clubs.
Unless we can harness worldwide sponsors, something that the game has abjectly failed to do since Adam was a young boy, I believe that you are crossing you fingers and if this project goes pear shaped, the domestic game will be utterly screwed.
Maybe 7 full time sides and the rest probably semi pro.

"We" should have put Toronto and Toulouse in the top flight in the last re structure and the very fact that we didn't / couldn't tells you that there were/are no extra funds to cover their inclusion and/ or despite your own optimism, our primary broadcaster wasn't sufficiently interested by the "sparkle" offered by Toronto.

It's also in New York which just happens to be the area under discussion regarding setting up a new team not in Florida as you seem to think, maybe it's time to go and hold the wife's hand.

Don't read it then. I'll live.
But if you've got nothing to contribute, why are you bothering to post? Nothing more boring than a person making noise with no purpose.

So you're saying that the Jacksonville team that is in the USARL (the Jacksonville he was talking about) isn't from Florida?

Nope, it's you that needs to revise that. The Jax Axe are most certainly a team from Florida.

Bless, you actually tried to contribute and got it totally wrong. You're in now, you'll have to try again.

Jacksonville that play in the USARL (the one he was clearly talking about) is a team based on Florida. He's even admitted it, which is fair play to him.

Classy comment to finish off with, too. I must be less of a man for being told that one...

Fair play.
Not quite sure your point though? Brooklyn are pretty much a community club. A new pro club would only enhance them. I doubt the Kings have any desire to go pro anytime soon. There's also the White Plains Wombats in New York State.
There was also the New York Knights, but they don't seem to be involved this year which is a shame as they've been around for about 20 years. Hopefully a pro team being in the area can reignite the community club scene and bring back other former local clubs such as the New Jersey Turnpike Titans and Southampton Dragons. That's 5 teams in the New York metro area, without even thinking about the the ones just up the coast. Plenty of chance to improve the community scene and give a huge shot to the USARL.


No I didn't.
I said, [i"I've no issue with them deciding the Challenge Cup is a British only competition, but make it clear."[/i
That doesn't mean they have. It's a hypothetical situation based on their actions to dissuade any competitive foreign clubs from entering. I'm fully aware that there are foreign clubs in the comp, but it was a rugby battle fit Catalans to defend their own trophy.
I certainly didn't say "we" so not sure why you're making a deal about highlighting that?


But it's not, so you need to hold the current clubs to that standard before banging on about how the New clubs should. It's incredibly hypocritical otherwise.

How players are developed is up for debate anyway. The American development system for professional sport is incredibly different to ours. Why should we expect it to be the same? They might do it better in the end.


That's contradictory. You're saying it's damaging that they're precluded and also damaging that they're included (incase they get to the final)? Sorry, not letting you get away with that one. Can't have it both ways.

I don't think it's damaging to the image if they do get to the final by the way. Not at all. Catalans getting to (and winning) was tremendous for the game.
The reason it was damaging financially was because of the people at the RFL bring unable to sell tickets to a showpiece event.


The issue of player development is that of the governing body. The governing body in this country puts it onto (some of) the clubs. In some cases, these are regional academies instead.

In America, do the clubs run academies? Or are they produced elsewhere? There's more then one way to skin a cat.


I have no idea how you've come to that conclusion? Widnes were relegated but still run one. Bradford still do. London did when not in Super League. Newcastle do. There used to be a Cumbria academy (IIRC, ran by the RFL). If the money if still available, I see no reason why these couldn't continue as has demonstrably been happening. I wouldn't say it's reasonable to assume at all.


What's incredible about it? It's factually correct. What you have said does not sure the absolute fact (not opinion) that having an extra team in a new area provides more opportunities to players (not just to play altogether, but to actually play somewhere new).
There are a finite number of players we can produce in the game. We are not at it yet.

And I'm pretty sure it's disingenuous to suggest that the same people that were arguing for reducing teams are also arguing to include NA teams. Have you ever considered these might be different sets of people?


Why would the game be screwed? If these teams are as fragile as you suggest, we ain't gonna see 5 of them at once in the top tier. They'd surely go bust within the 4 years it would take to promote them all (and assume none get relegated).
In the meantime, I'm pretty sure with the extra Sky money from these teams not accepting it that we'd be able to support more of the Championship.

It's hyperbole at its worst.


Rubbish. It tells you that they tried to please the traditionalist by reintroducing P&R with no exceptions and forced every single be club to start at the bottom regardless of where they're from.

My word, can you imagine the outrage if they just put them in the top league? Meltdown would be incredible. The league have made it quite clear they don't want to do that anymore.

NO he said this to you : [iif you consider that Jacksonville is a suburb of New York,[/i
and you said this ...............

[iI think you desperately need to look at a map! Jacksonville is in Florida![/i.

Where's Durham Giant when you need him ?


This thread is so much 'off topic' it's now a Geography competition !

It's called context. He was talking about the USARL. He was talking about the teams in the USARL. Why would he randomly mention a place called Jacksonville in NY?

He was talking about a rugby league team in NY. He mistook this for Jacksonville (who aren't based on NY, they're based in Florida). He's already admitted he was mistaken

But yeah, you thinking he was randomly talking about place called Jacksonville in NY that was completely irrelevant to the discussion and completely unrelated to the rugby league team if you wish. You'd be completely and utterly wrong though and it will only make you look even more stupid.

It's not really a competition to be fair



Fair point though. I'm not even sure how it became about foreign teams!

So, Magic Weekend...

It's in Liverpool, Merseyside, England !

So then...back to the original question.
If we get to Magic weekend and t looks like Leeds/Wigan are in any danger of going down, will there be a hastily arranged meeting of the SL chairmen to expand to 14 and welcome toronto and another team up?

If anybody says no they won’t will you believe/accept it anyway?

I've asked a question, so of course I will accept someone else's opinion, regardless of if I believe it to be right or wrong. Believing it is nether here nor there.
For me the comp cannot survive the demise of either of the 2 best supported clubs in the game at the moment.....the idea of Leeds or Wigan being relegated and the game losing at least over 10% of it's top tier gates is unthinkable. We are not football, we don't have the depth of support football has.
When Bradford went down, they were averaging 6k......that was bad enough, but tempered with the loss of London who were themselves dragging the average down, neither side averaged ABOVE the comp figure that year......

Perspective is everything, especially to advertising execs. 140,881 fans attended Leeds Home Regular season games in 2018, of 1,100,508 who attended the 11 home games at each ground that season. 13% of the fans who attended regular season games, did so at Leeds games. 11% at Wigan.......these are two of only 3 current SL sides who have won the comp and are arguably the 2 biggest names in the game in the modern era, along with maybe St Helens.

If London were to be relegated (as I believe we will) the impact would be more circumstantial than factual, with the loss of a capital presence felt, but the loss of over 10% of the fanbase that SL broadcasters want would be far greater.

Wigan's gates this year are abysmal....10% down on last year, 3k down on 3 years ago....and they are the champions......the game is in a tailspin and losing one of the big clubs would be a catastrophe.....IMHO that is.

That's two threads I've had to agree with you on, I need to lie down in a dark room

I didn't realise it had to be in its first season

Well by entering the British system, they could have a SL quality team playing other SL quality teams within 5 years (that's the goal).

How long do you think it would take to get the USARL up to anywhere near that quality and prestige?

What's pretty striking in all of these types of discussions is how the detractors of expansion (and there are credible reasons to be a detractor) have lots of reasons why expansion can't work, won't work or shouldn't be allowed to work, but have very few solutions or suggestions on an alternative.

The RL community, and this forum is no different, has lots of people yelling "focus on the heartlands" but when you press them on what this actually means, they've got nothing.

The sport has been "focusing on the heartlands" for more than 120 years and that approach has got the sport to where it is today - lacking relevance, lacking exposure, lacking players and lacking finance. What kind of "focusing on the heartlands" would yield a different result? The people shouting this must have an idea, surely?

Expansion is not the goal here, it is simply the mechanism. The goal should be to get more people playing, watching and enjoying the sport in a way that makes it financially sustainable as a modern professional entity and if the heartland clubs were showing that they could consistently do that, expansion is not even on the agenda.

The USA has roller derby teams with more financial backing than some of our SuperLeague teams but Rugby of either code struggle. Association Football survives more because it is seen as being accessible to both sexes and is often supported more by middle class Soccer Moms which gives it the grass roots appeal. Rugby league does not have that so unless we can bring in national TV coverage we will struggle to get a foothold. The TV market in The USA is still segmented regionally with cable still dominant and in the internet age they are unlikely to ever develop the kind of all encompassing national TV system that we are used to. What we need is someone who can see into the future. If we find that person can we ask them for the winning lottery numbers?

yay, another new Jean facade

Expansion in the UK has failed due to lack of will to make it happen and more importantly, the lack of serious cash to make it a success plus, if you go back a little way, expansion was foiled at every turn by dark forces from the other code which, had they worked as hard to solve the broken time payments issue, would have meant that RL would never have been a sport.

Interesting that you site "lack of players" and yet bang the drum for the N. American sides to entice players from over here to fill their roster.

Unfortunately, Union, with its seemingly endless supply of cash is smothering our sport and you have schools in Yorkshire being promised grants from Union to encourage some schools to drop RL from their curriculum but, we mustn't play the victim .



RL showed it's true colours when allowing Sheffield to "merge" with Huddersfield and Gateshead to "merge" with Hull but, fundamentally, we suffer through lack of cash / investment.

There should be a grown up discussion on where the sport would like to be in 5 /10/ 20 years time but, this either doesn't happen at all or it's on the bag fag packet in our new leaders pocket.

Yourself and others bang on about us having had 120 years to do whatever and I would suggest that RL greatest achievement has been to help Union go global.
By "stealing their players on a regular basis through the 70', 80's and 90's, they decided to turn their "amateur" game into a pro sport and sadly, with the huge resources at their disposal, RL has become ever more marginalised.

The game hasn't had any kind of proper plan for over 40 years and until some of those, who are paid significant money actually hatch a realistic way forward, change will not happen.

more utter bollox, at least tomorrow is pension day.