Toronto have now played 3 seasons in the English competition and have delivered very little benefit to the game in the Northern Hemisphere.
A few media bursts and that's about it. When they played games at London Skolars they delivered minimal crowds, when they played a game at HKR they contributed hardly any uplift in the gate, to the extent that it wasn't declared and they delivered fewer than 2k when they played in Newcastle. They have failed to attract "casual" sports fans to the game, one of the things that their apologists claim. Running a Beer Festival on match day and handing out tickets like confetti, whilst PAYING A PRODUCTION COMPANY TO FILM YOU and then giving that away is nothing more than a vanity project which is being built on foundations of Sand.

I posted elsewhere that if SBW is to play 58 SL games in his 2 years there he will be on £86,000 a game based on a £5,000,000 salary over 2 seasons. 11 Games will be played at Lamport in 2020....let's assume it's 22 over SBW's 2 seasons........if they filled Lamport with ST Holding fans over the 2 years they'd take £3,370,000...so they are in a £1,630,000 hole even if they fill the stadium for every game with paying fans and that's a loss based on 1 players wages. Flights, accommodation, Food, Training facilities, stadium rent, backroom wages (Brian Mac will be on a wedge, as will Nobby)......it's fair to "guess" they will make a massive loss in 2020 and 2021 and any "star" players they try to sign for 2021 will be well aware of the money SBW's on........

...argyle is minted, so good luck to the fella, but how long will the SL bosses accept this interloper of a club that will cost them in lost gate receipts and in all probability less money from their TV partner?

Rubbish.

When Toulouse played Toronto at Stade Ernest Wallon this year the attendance went from the usual 1700- 2300 up to over 6,000! The increase was not from the Canadians living in Toulouse. It was obviously from the casual sports fans whom they attracted to the game.

Utter Tripe, but to be expected from the faux french Oker.

The made an "event" of the game and moved it to the more popular Wallon stadium as the normal residents there were in a time out, as the French Union side was in Dublin the day after featuring 6 players who would normally be there....where they averaged 18k and change in the top 14 and 15k and change this season for the visit of Connaught and Montpellier (where my wife got her degree...but I digress) in the European top tier comp.

Secondly....and only as Stepanie seemed keen to bring up grammar....the following is incorrectly worded. I would forgive you if English was not your mother tongue, but it is, so I don't.

There is a recent League Express article that you can find on Toronto’s impact on away attendance. It contains all the numbers needed for you to come to your own conclusions.

Axey, you need to behave

Many thanks for kindly replying.

On the players issue I have to remind you exactly what the player development plan was. It was the conversion of Grid Iron players to RL players and YES it was to happen pretty much "overnight", they started the trials and it all quickly fell apart. Therefore I do not know how you can say "It won't happen overnight" and try to indicate we have to wait 20 years for the development of Canadian kids into RL professionals. We can wait 200 years but it cant happen as there is no junior ARL in Canada and again McDermott isn't going to start any and Argyle would be dead before any kids come through.

"Media coverage" was defined as paying North American TV deals. Both growth targets were fully defined by Perez and Argyle and the definition you present of "media coverage" isn't that. it's a TV contract to give parity with clubs here who have a TV contract. So to summarise what TWP promised on entry to Superleague they didn't provide. They provided nothing.

You haven't fallen into a trap at all, and you are not alone, you are just one of many who won't accept TWP failed miserably. Anyway until TWP actually produce a player or a few dollars TV money to share here, do you think New York or Ottawa should be allowed to come in? It's no "Trap" I just want to understand this alternative view?

I’d say no on Ottawa for the player development reasons and ongoing uncertainties you have mentioned but I’m lead to believe (by those with far more interest than me in the subject) that there is a stronger rugby league player base already existing in New York/the US so I’d be less against their introduction if this is the case. I think letting them in lower down the ladder or waiting until we see how Toronto fare in SL is obviously the safer route though.

Very grateful for your reply, and delighted to agree. I would not let Ottawa in - noting Perez "promised" junior development this time, but come on Eric we have heard all this before. Stay at the Bulls and do something good there for once.....

Delighted to agree on New York only on the basis that a USARL actually exists, and no matter how much some deride that league, it's a framework to build on. Have a good Xmas sir!

Too many clubs (as discussed above) have survived on affluent owners having to fund losses out of their own pocket. We've bucked the trend by having owners with no money, who can't fund losses at all. Eric can stay as long as he maintains this solid and endlessly pleasurable business model. We could rename Odsal Ottawa, see if that fools him.

Across the game the preparedness of owners to gift money to their clubs creates a bit of a lottery. We can have big clubs whom we need in Superleague struggling with no rich owner, and little clubs who have a benefactor enjoying a Superleague place but contributing little to the party. Obviously we can't tell rich owners which clubs they can spend their money at, as most appear to spend it because they have a personal affinity to the club they choose to be at.

Martin Luther King had a dream, and so do I, albeit not quite as brilliant as his, however imagine Perez and Argylle taking over Bradford Bulls, with Argylle funding the rebuilding of Odsal as the wembley of the north, and putting a winning side in there. What's not to like about that! It's a shame to see the man wasting so many £millions on simply the wrong plan. This thread is about the TV deal and the news so far is it won't be big enough for any more than 10 clubs and McManus stated at least 9 have to be English for the English audience.

It therefore appears impossible for the likes of Ottawa to ever get into Superleague or TWP to stay there, and Argyle, Perez and Wood must know this. AFAIK Argyle most of all wanted an NRL club, and it appeared he was toying with London Skolars. It's not therefore a pipedream he could actually land at Odsal where I could not see any sane true RL fan grumble about that?.

...and whilst I love Toronto as a city to visit, once Argyle's wolfed down the chicken and spinach karahi at KARACHI, he'll be looking to relocate to bd6 in a heartbeat

Toronto are here to stay. It’s no different to London who have someone willing to fund their massive losses with nothing in return. The only difference is Toronto have far much more money than London and have 10 times the supporter base.

Yeah, they'll still be around in a 100 years !

Probably will be.

But Leigh won’t be

YAWN, your obsession is worrying.

Just wait until the season starts,and Leigh lose a game. There will be wallpaper paste splattered all over his computer.

A big spike in sales follows every Toulouse/Catalan/Toronto win, but it's a phenomenal increase should this be combined with losses for Leigh or Wakefield.
They are the Kleenex Collective!

I'll be surprised if Toronto Barbarians are still in OUR league in 10 years, never mind a 100.

I shouldn't think either will be in Superleague 2022.

That's the season a reduced TV deal comes in from SKY and a reduced Superleague of likely 10 clubs. Who the clubs will be will be decided by Superleague bosses and SKY who will favour the English clubs so Leeds, Hull. HKR, Wakey, Cas, Huddersfield, Wire, Saints, Wigan and Leigh is likely to be the league by then or should we say Caddick, Pearson, Hudgell, Carter, Fulton, Davey, Moran, McManus, Lenigan and Beaumont.....

None of these gentlemen will sell out a colleague to continue the TWP farce. SKY will want English clubs and their subscription buying fans. TWP have no value to the game here. To indicate the supporter base of TWP in Toronto is any value to clubs here isn't right is it Steph.

Lack of any forward plan will again impact on any TV deal.

The N. American experiment with a "let's just see how it goes" attitude isn't going to help secure any improvement n the TV deal.
It's quite ridiculous that NOBODY knows if we should stick or twist in terms of expanding the comp.

As a supporter of one of the so called smaller clubs, there is a concern that "we" will try and squeeze some of the UK clubs out, to allow the remaining clubs to take a larger slice of a smaller cake or, simply reduce the size of SL, with the same result.
This would be "sold" as "improving the quality" of the comp, with the reality being something quite different.

The addition of the N. American clubs will increase costs to all clubs without increasing the return
Although, in the lower leagues, Toronto coming to town with their "star studded" side does generate some additional interest, this is unlikely to be the case in SL and do they actually have any plans to invest in grassroots development.
Difficult as this is, if they have any aspirations to develop the sport over there, there has to be some roots underneath the headline club.

I don't know why you say "nobody knows". Eamon McManus went public on behalf of Superlegue to say SL don't want NA clubs because they are just English and Aussie pro's dressing up as expansion teams? They don't run foundations, don't underpin junior ARL, they don't run academies and don't run reserves. Wakefield do all of these things, and what's more they are a big club as compared to any North American fantasy. Had Trinity got Newmarket or the Belle Vue redevelopment they would be flying in the same way new grounds revitalised Saints, Wire and Hull. I also just do not get where you get the idea of English clubs being squeezed out? Who by exactly?

Sky won't want English clubs squeezed out either, it's their fans that buy the SKY subscriptions, not the French or the Americans. Where do you get this idea from I wonder? Do you buy League Express or League weekly or log onto Total RL.com?? There's no shortage of people including guys who run these things (and should know better) dreaming of what could be and chucking Mr. Axe to grind out for talking reality, whilst ignoring the massive damage and cost (as you say) of turning transatlantic................You got that bang on right - why not stop Mr. Carter at the next game and give him your concerns - I am sure he'll re-assure you.

He will tell you they had to let TWP in because of a legally binding agreement with the RFL the winner of the Championship goes up. He will tell you that won't happen again, and TWP will be out when the new SKY deal is agreed.

Donnyman. Do you think you can write shorter posts so that I can find time to read them? Some of us are busy. In any case, being succinct is a virtue in writing.

The north american TV market is huge.
The home shopping network, which does nothing but try to flog cheap chinese crap, claims to have 94 million viewers - or over 3 times the population of Australia.
The NRL gets broadcast on the fox soccer channel in the early hours of the morning in the US and gets numbers of viewers that would look OK in Australia.
You don't need to get much of a foothold in the US TV market to dwarf anything from any other market.
Popular sports in the US can sign individual players for 100s of millions because of the size of their market.

Of course he could write shorter posts for you and stephie, but by condensing them he might lose some of the points he's trying unsuccessfully to put across to you regarding the obvious, what do they say in Kiev, there's/theirs/they'res nowt so blind as them as can't see, you should be grateful to the man for taking the time to educate you by giving it to you straight from the thread to the needle, that's another old saying from Kiev btw.

Someone has hit the sherry early!