I'd be disappointed if Wigan signed him in all honesty.

As for Loose Forward, it's nice to see a position with conflict over the best qualities, gives team different strategies - formations in RL can be a little formulaic otherwise. For me, the players that scream Loose Forward to me in the modern game are S.Burgess, O'Loughlin, Bird, G.Stewart, Gallen, Blair (when he doesn't suck) and Sinfield. Just Forwards with an aspect of ball playing in their game.

Beyond this I'm surprised teams haven't tried... I don't know off the top of my head, dual hookers more like NZ with Luke/Leuluai, sometimes St.Helens with Roby who could make an interesting choice at loose. Or even a proper floating 3 man backrow: instead of Left/Tight/Right make set plays around them all stacking one side or something. I mean Leeds played with 3 halves with Sinfield at loose which worked for a long time. Hell, even James Graham would make a fantastic loose forward imo.

Then again I'm still surprised no team has had the balls to try out a dual fullback system, I was quietly hoping Souths might try it with Merrit being a shadow to anyone with an offload and Inglis taking the ball-playing/destructive runner role like normal.

Paul Gallen every single day of the week.

Except when an extra Pivot with defensive prowess is needed then a Sean O'Loughlin type

Or Kevin Sinfield when you want pin back a defence with world class kicking game and a great rugby brain.

Or just have Hanley there

1 day Joe Westerman at his very best, taking the game seriously, might make a decent out & out 13.


As for Cas, we'll either use 13 as an extra prop, this year Millo may play there.

I think that's the problem in the modern game, coaches don't seem to know what an out and out 13 is.

6ft 2 ins, 17 stone, 100 metres in 10.5 sec, top quality tackler, decent step (on either foot), sublime passing skills, reads the game.
That should cover it but, the reality is that we have to make do with a player that has some of these attributes that best suits the other players in the team.

Most have a ball playing forward that will tackle.

I think we've all seen enough of Westerman to know that him taking the game seriously and playing at his very best, would be the best 13 in this country by a long way. Upto now hasn't fulfilled his potential

Because there is no such thing as an "out and out 13". It depends entirely on the balance of your side and how you use your half-backs, full-back and second rowers.

About the only pre-requisite is that they should be able to defend in the middle third, all else is about where they slot into the team pattern.

the out-and-out loose forward has died, as most sides have moved the extra ball handling role to the fullback, while the average hooker has also become faster and more manouverable, the end result being sides can benefit more from an extra hard-running forward than a a fifth ball player.

O'Loughlin, Wilkin and Westerman are just about the only ball playing loose forwards left in top level super league, and so by default, they're the best in that mould.

In terms of the big tackling loose forward, Leeds have three-Ablett, Bailey and Clarkson. Warrington have Harrison, Hull KR have Lovegrove & Catalans have Baitieri. Of those, Baitieri & Harrison are the best looses that aren't mostly used elsewhere.

Funny how no one has mentioned Danny Washbrook at Wakefield.
Top Superleague tackler last season.
Ball handler, can play stand off, and scores a fair number of tries.

Doesnt John Wilkin get a mention? When you're asking for a player to be built and run like a forward, yet be able to pass, step, kick and read a game like a half back, imo you have to say Wilkin shows most of those attributes naturally.

Westerman isnt a 13, never has been never will be. Likes to hide out wide to much.

I think Westerman looked like being the real deal at Cas. For some reason he's gone backwards at Hull.

Danny Washbrook has been a revelation since joining Wakefield. Top tackler of the season by far, scored his fair share of tries, played in a half back/creative type role at times, whilst also working hard like a prop at other times. He's been brilliant, very underrated.

Would like to see Smith try Hill at 13 this year. Big lad who has suprising pace, a great step and good hands - coming through his youth as a 6 I understand.
His second season in SL will see him play a much more expansive role imo.

Can't argue there. Washbrook had a good game every time I saw him last year.

I'll second that. He even scored and made cover tackles in a wing position!

Early on in the season there were a few people I spoke to at games who said he was only in the team because he was a big mate of Agar. The end of season stats speak for themselves.

Aside from height and passing game, i think your description fits Larne Patrick at Hudds. Just a shame he fell away at the end of last year, when hes fit and hungry he's got all the attributes to be a top loose.

Westerman at the minute isn't a loose forward. He is a legs defender, and you can't carry two legs defenders in the 'middle bank' of the field. He's better suited on an edge. A legs tackle is much quicker and less effective in the modern game than a 10-12 second ball/torso tackle.

A player I would like to see have a crack at loose forward is Justin Hodges. He's a big stong boy, makes meters in the middle and always gets an arm free. Solid defender too.

As stated before i dont belive There is one answer for what you would class as an " out and out loose" it depends on what the coach wants that position to add to the team. e.g another tough man up the middle of the park, that will do the hard yards (Paul Gallen) Or someone with a creative mind, a third half back if you like, with a kicking game (Kevin Brown)

Some teams play a 13 down one side, Andy Farrell did it for Wigan and I seem to remember Paul Cooke doing it as well.

If you were playing a ball playing loose forward, you'd have him defend 3rd or 4th in off the edge anyway, rather than in the middle four.

I see Westerman as a wide running second row, FWIW.

I see your point, yet it would effect a teams shape. If playing a 'pivot' style 13, he would have to defend 3/4 in, next to another pivot. I think it's much, much smarter to go with banks of 4 in defence, middle and two egde's.

I take peoples point of a loose playing on an edge, you'll see Gallen do it a lot at Cronulla down the left, but he'll always be replaced by someone in the middle, more often than not it has been Jeremy Smith over the past couple of years down the counter balance.

For me, a loose forward doesn't need to be a pivot anymore, but should offer an offload. A pre-requisite of a modern day full back is to be a pivot. If a hooker, two halves and a fullback can't pass from one side line to another, why put in another pivot to 'carry' in defence?

i expect brett ferres to go very well at loose forward next season for the giants, played really well back end of last season for us and with a good pre season will go well.
alongside o'donnell and chan.. or lawrence..or ta'ai!! options.

That's pretty much how most teams play now. The third pivot being the fullback, and the loose forward being effectively an extra prop and defending the middle four along with the front row.
If you did have a ball playing loose you wanted to protect in defence, you would swap his defensive spot usually with the right side second row - that's why Chris Joynt used to complain when he had to play on the right



I expect to see many teams start putting their hookers to one of the edge units as we move on, particularly if not carrying a second hooker on the bench.

Unless they have a freakish engine like Roby you may be right. You can get away with an 80 minute hooker that offers a limited running game, like a Randall or Henderson style, but your Monaghan/D Clark/Lunt et al couldn't do an effective job for the full 80 anymore.