I have? Really? I didn't even know.

I wasn't saying that Brown was being racist (though, as Wellsy has pointed out, the UN might think so), I was merely picking an obvious example of how someone could 'look' one thing and 'be' another. That I chose African is neither here nor there. The example, as I pointed out, works just as well if you substitute African for Italian, Turkish, or whatever.



Race may [iinclude[/i those things, but that's not necessarily all you would consider when deciding someone's race.



Not for the first time, this is utter nonsense. 'European' is not a word that describes race. It merely describes what continent a person is from. As has already been made abundantly clear to you, there are many different races spread across Europe. And neither is 'African' a description of race. A white person born in, say, South Africa is just as African as a black person born in Kenya. But they're not the same race.



If nationality is about 'culture not looks', that would vindicate my assertion that Brown is an idiot for saying that Henderson 'looks Aussie' and therefore shouldn't be allowed to play for England, would it not?

SaintsFan has gone incredibly quiet. I think it's safe to say he/she has lost this one.

That made me laugh

(i hope that doesnt offend anyone)

Well, apart from me, my old man and the people in my life that have had it rammed down their throats for many years... but other than that, it's rare!




I'm not sure what the situation is in the Isle of Man... but basically people here are considered English to most, they (for the most part) support English national teams in sport. But can happily go into English hating parts of the UK with a smile and not get roughed up lol!

IIRC, Richard Horne represented Scotland at the RLWC2000 because his Grandma was from the Isle of Man, and therefore he was eligible to play for any of the home nations.

Seriously, not quite sure how that one works! Not lived in Scotland. Not got a Scottish bone in him. But because his Grandma was from an island not belonging to anyone he can!?

Not if you are talking about race. Turkish does not describe a race; it describes a nationality. African describes a race (never completed a form when applying for a job?). There are a number of nationalities within the continent of Africa.

Like I say, you're being obtuse.

If I am wrong about something then depending upon the context I may well apologise. If I have offended someone then I may apologise or I may not, depending on a number of factors. However, I am getting thoroughly bored with the contemporary notion that whenever a point of view is voiced which happens to offend someone - anyone - then the person expressing the view should apologise. It's bollox. Brown has no need to apologise, either for getting something wrong or for his opinion. It is his opinion and he is free to express it. Henderson should stop being such an hysterical child.

You can keep trying, but you're just digging.

Racial descrimination can be on the basis on nationality.

Is Pakistani a race? Is calling someone the P-word not racist then?

I'm [inot[/i describing race. 'African' means 'a person from the continent of Africa' and includes many races (as well as nationalities). I'm not being obtuse, you're being breathtakingly stupid.

From Wiki:

"The African continent is [uhome to many different ethnic and racial groups[/u, with wide-ranging phenotypical traits, both indigenous and foreign to the continent.[6 Many of these populations have [udiverse origins, with differing cultural, linguistic and social traits and mores.[/u Distinctions within Africa's geography, such as the varying climates across the continent, have also served to nurture diverse lifestyles among its various populations. The continent's inhabitants live amid deserts and jungles, as well as in modern cities across the continent."

It is an opinion based on ignorance and no facts that is attempting to effect Henderson's international career. He has every right to be upset about it.

He should apologise and be a man for being wrong, for being descriminatory and in doing so causing offence. Otherwise he might as well just go around saying Mexicans are lazy, Americans are fat and Indians smell funny. After all, it's only his opinion and it doesn't matter if it offends anyone. Especially if that affects a particular job role.

You'd seriously struggle with that one! The jails would be groaning under the weight of people calling French folk 'frogs' or the Irish 'micks'. I wonder if the UN would be interested in the Aussies calling us English 'Poms'? Isn't that racist?


What do you mean by the P-word? Are you talking about 'Paki-bashing'? If so then to do that is racist yes because the word is being used as a pejorative.

Here is a definition of the word 'race' in the context we are discussing it (and I understand and use it), as found in the [url=http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/raceCollins Dictionary online[/url

[inoun
1. a group of people of common ancestry, distinguished from others by physical characteristics, such as hair type, colour of eyes and skin, stature, etc. Principal races are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid
2. See the human race
3. a group of animals or plants having common characteristics that distinguish them from other members of the same species, usually forming a geographically isolated group; subspecies
4. a group of people sharing the same interests, characteristics, etc ⇒ the race of authors
5. See play the race card [/i

What has any of that got to do with what Brown said about Henderson? If anything, it shows even further that he was wrong!

Why would they? Not all racial discrimination is a jail-able offence.


But is Pakistani isn't a race. It's a nationality.


Where in your definition does it say "European"?



You are fixated on the idea of race now anyway as a diversion tactic from the real point.

Whether he was stereotyping and discriminating in a racial way, ethnic way, sexist way or whatever is irrelevant from the point being made. Nathan Brown is saying that Henderson is not English because according to Brown's stereotype, he considers him Australian. In the eyes of EVERY DEFINITION given to me by those that consider someone English (born here, an English parent), he is definitely English! In the eyes of the majority of those against the residency rule (i.e. playing for a country that you weren't from), he is NOT Australian. Yet Nathan Brown has argued that because he looks Aussie he must be an Aussie. WTF?

Again, tell me what does an Aussie look like and can you tell them apart from English people if they're wearing the same kit on a rugby pitch?

Are they the ones that are winning?

Nice.

WTF? Seriously, WTAF?!?

Arguing the definition of race, to decide whether a comment is racist is purposely missing the point.

I think it is fairly clear that in modern times you can be racist from country to country or even ethnic group within one country. You don't have to be from a different "race" in terms of Afro-Caribbean v Caucasian

An English person can clearly be racist against a French or German person. Their differences are not visible in the way it is explained above, they are cultural and obvious.

I'm sure you have made this absurd statement before, and I'm sure when i pointed out to you how stupid it was, you ignored the reply.

It's stupid because, if you go back far enough, you will get to a pair of ancestors who were not from that country.

And so their child, being born of foreign parents, would be forever foreign. As would its children. And so on.

So, your nutty theory means that NOBODY, in the whole world, could ever qualify to play for any country. I suppose it would cut down on the cost of staging the Olympics, as there would be no competing athletes.

Wish I'd never started the thread

It's all gone a bit Oswald Moseley....

Well they're wearing the same kit as the English, so how could they be winning and the English players not?

(I anticipated this answer, which is why I added that bit

)

I'm glad you did, as it has pointed out quite a lot of ignorances that people hold and some of them have been corrected.

There's a similar thread on the Hull board, and many people didn't actually realise Henderson was English born to an English and a Scottish parent. They just assumed (apparently like Brown) that he was an Aussie just because of how he talks (not by how he looks though I'm guessing!).

But it was good to see you disagreed with the duck part!

Haha! Didn't you know some people live to be offended?

In summary, Brown is not racist he's just plain wrong.

No - he was half-right, but ruined his own argument by including Henderson, whilst at the same time providing those people who live to be offended on other people's behalf sufficient ammunition to fuel a 19 page thread on the most popular RL forum in the world.