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| Quote ="Gronk!"Every time England play the Aussies there's also biased cheating refs because the Aussies do what they do best and whinge until they get their own way. Even the Kiwi refs are shockingly bias so it makes no difference.
The only way this will stop is if the RFL outright refuse to play against the Australians anymore.'"
In the past I would've said no we need to play better and not have a period of "slacking off" and just deal with the situation. But I've had enough of seeing us not get a fair crack at Australia. Not necessarily see us win, but get a fair crack. It's happened too often and over too many years to be a coincidence and today is beyond a joke, as Roy Haggerty says it's cheating and it's corrupt.
I think we're almost at the point where we have to think about not playing the Aussies.
A 4/5 Nations comp of England, New Zealand then 3 of France, Wales, PNG, Samoa, Fiji etc would be viable and despite not having Australia in it at least the winners would be fair winners. Whether the other nations would go for it I don't know.
Quote ="Roy Haggerty"Speaking as a ref, who normally defends refs, the following observations can be made :
1) That was a try under the rules of the game. None of this "in Super League" rubbish. The rules are clear - downward pressure on the ball by any part of the hand or arm is a try. It was a try, 100%. The decision was the worst example of blatant corruption I have ever seen at international level, and the video referee should be banned from reffing anything other than park football again. It was shocking. Sickeningly corrupt. I would be ashamed to be involved in that decision. Disgraceful.
2) The cheated try will gain most column inches, but where the Aussies petulant demand for their own biased referee really paid off was in general play. On several occasions when the Aussies in the second half were coming to the end of a set without having made their 40 metres, a penalty was given for a spurious interference offence. This allowed them to clear their half and gain field position. England received no penalties - not a single one - for the same offence in the same period, despite plenty of examples of interference as bad or worse than those which threw a lifeline to a struggling Aussie side. The referee's refusal to award any penalty for clear interference offences to the English side was outrageous, and was instrumental in ensuring that the Australians gained the position to score their second-half tries, while also denying the English side any field position until the last five minutes.
Taken together, the corruption of both video referee and onfield referee in favouring their own, home, team, was easily the most disgusting thing I've seen in international rugby league in forty years. Every single Australian official and administrator should feel ashamed of what transpired today in Melbourne. I feel sickened by it, and by them.'"
Agree entirely
Really there should be an investigation but since the Aussies would conduct the investigation what's the point. It's that corrupt it's verging on match fixing.
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| Taking the last couple of minutes out of the game, how often were England's kickers taken way after the ball had gone?
How many high shots went unpunished by the Australian forwards?
Why was Greg Bird not even put on report for blatantly standing on James Graham's achilles in a grub act in keeping with his character?
Still, it's not like anything will happen. England will complain, the Australian media (insular as always) will dismiss them as "whinging Poms" and will continue to run the sport for their own benefit.
Frankly, after the liberties taken today, I would be tempted to tell them to stuff it. If they want to focus on their dull, five drives, no risk Origin product then let them. The rest of the sport would be better off without the school bully, who insists that everything is done on their terms.
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| Quote ="adelaide-giant.no9"the " clear grounding" is open to speculation, but the call of " ball was rising" is just so wrong...all the ref had to say was " no clear grounding" and as with nrl video rules( which they must be using as all tries were awarded/disallowed before going to video)....so with the last try if ref didn't make a call and they are playing nrl rules, then " no try" was the presumed call....the try was 50/50 , so with nrl rules the try was cancelled'"
its not 50/50, its not a matter of degrees or opinion. It was a simple, binary decision. Did Hall Touch the Ball whilst the ball was on the ground. There is conclusive proof he did.
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| What is the point of playing Australia when they blatantly bend all the rules to suit themselves.
For instance , they banned the shoulder charge just as the Burgess brothers and the South Sea Islanders were using it to devastating effect.
As for appointing their own refs and video refs. I really wonder why we bother playing against them.
If we beat The Kiwis by ten points next week who refs the final if it's us and Australia ?
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| Today was also a clear example of why the NRL video ref system doesn't work.
The referee on the field is forced to guess at whether it's a try or not before referring it. The VR then has to find a compelling reason to overturn the on-field call, which he's hardly likely to do unless it's an absolute blunder for fear of making his colleague look like an idiot. (particularly if said colleague also happens to be his brother)
Why not just do what we do in SL? Pass the whole lot up to the VR, and let them make a decision without having the pressure of the on-field referee's opinion weighing on them.
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"Again I ask which fckwit in the England management agreed to the NRL's request for an Australian ref and VR when they were well within entitlement to demand a neutral ref?'"
they didn't. The referee was chosen by a vote between the three reps. Jon Sharp insisted on a neutral referee. Australia and NZ argued for the 'best' referees to be appointed.
its just complete coincidence that the best referees to be an Australian refereeing the Australia game and a Kiwi refereeing the NZ game, any argument that the tournaments two host nations conspiring to appoint their favoured referee to two very close games won by 2pts and 4pts respectively is a bad look for the game is obviously just whining.
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| Quote ="Roy Haggerty"
I have in the past made very similar calls. I think the reason I am so disgusted today is that actually, we WERE good enough today, and we DID do enough to win it. Our forwards beat their forwards, and our threequarters matched theirs. Only in the halves did they have the advantage. It's not often you can say this, but today the difference absolutely was the entirely one-sided penalty count for interference, and the corrupt video referee decision.
The problem with taking the "It's our fault, it was ours for the taking, let ourselves down" line is that whereas I used to think that was about being realistic about our prospects, I now think it's actually part of the cultural cringe of us expecting to lose, and refusing to believe we can win. Today, we were robbed - absolute highway robbery by a bent set of home officials. If that had happened to the Aussies over here, they'd be screaming blue murder from the head of the NRL to the lowliest bag-carrier, and they'd make damn sure that pressure was applied to ensure no repeat could ever happen. That's because they would start from the place where they believe they could have, and should have, won. When it happens to us, I think far too many of our British fans, players and officials start from the place of assuming that we were never good enough to win, and so we shouldn't make too much fuss because it's our fault. Yet today, we were the better team for most of that match, and the Aussies were effectively gifted the second half through the onfield referee, and then outrageously given an undeserved victory by the corrupt video referee. We damn well should be screaming blue murder. Not because we're whining and moping, but because we deserved that victory, and we should back up our players on the field with some courage and determination off the field too.
Those who argue that it's all in our hands, shouldn't make a fuss etc, are really just accepting failure. In this case, those who recognise robbery for what it is, are the ones who are demonstrating that our traditional lack of self-belief is shifting.'"
I don't know. My initial reaction and instinct during and after the game was one of positivity. I didn't feel hard done by the officials in the least, watching the game there were lot's of incidents where i thought england could have been penalised but weren't, so when australia weren't penalised for equally borderline stuff i just thought fair doos. I didn't begin to feel any negativity or injustice until I came on here and read some comments and outrage, which just depressed me.
I'd rather go on my gut feeling as i watched the game, rather than being influenced by the mass opinion on here. It's easier on the brain and the ticker.
I don't think england were robbed and I still think they have a great shot at actually winning the tournament. Let's hope the players still believe it too, they should do after that performance.
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| Quote ="Brick with eyes"If we beat The Kiwis by ten points next week who refs the final if it's us and Australia ?'"
At a guess, I would say Gerard Sutton with his brother Bernie in the VR booth again.
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| Out of interest, when was the last time Gerard Sutton refereed a game under a single ref system prior to this tournament?
Having a referee used to working in the two ref system of the NRL work an international game, is like having a netball umpire work a basketball game.
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| Quote ="Roy Haggerty"You really should have. The penalties he awarded to Australia in the second half, and the penalties he didn't award to England, were crucial in determining the outcome of that match.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you quite vehemently here. The rules are very clear - downward pressure on the ball by any part of the hand is a try. There was downward pressure on the ball by Hall's finger, and thus it is a try. I genuinely do not understand why some people are claiming this is somehow debatable. It was a 50/50 call for the on-field referee, which is fine - if he'd left it there then I wouldn't be on here crying foul, because at full-speed in the heat of the game, I certainly wouldn't have felt confident making that decision. But when the video referee looks at it, sees absolutely cast-iron 100% evidence of a finger on the ball while it is on the ground, and STILL claims no-try, then you've left the realms of judgement calls and entered into the realms of corruption and cheating. There is no argument about this - it was a straight out and out cheat. Disgraceful.
I have in the past made very similar calls. I think the reason I am so disgusted today is that actually, we WERE good enough today, and we DID do enough to win it. Our forwards beat their forwards, and our threequarters matched theirs. Only in the halves did they have the advantage. It's not often you can say this, but today the difference absolutely was the entirely one-sided penalty count for interference, and the corrupt video referee decision.
The problem with taking the "It's our fault, it was ours for the taking, let ourselves down" line is that whereas I used to think that was about being realistic about our prospects, I now think it's actually part of the cultural cringe of us expecting to lose, and refusing to believe we can win. Today, we were robbed - absolute highway robbery by a bent set of home officials. If that had happened to the Aussies over here, they'd be screaming blue murder from the head of the NRL to the lowliest bag-carrier, and they'd make damn sure that pressure was applied to ensure no repeat could ever happen. That's because they would start from the place where they believe they could have, and should have, won. When it happens to us, I think far too many of our British fans, players and officials start from the place of assuming that we were never good enough to win, and so we shouldn't make too much fuss because it's our fault. Yet today, we were the better team for most of that match, and the Aussies were effectively gifted the second half through the onfield referee, and then outrageously given an undeserved victory by the corrupt video referee. We damn well should be screaming blue murder. Not because we're whining and moping, but because we deserved that victory, and we should back up our players on the field with some courage and determination off the field too.
Those who argue that it's all in our hands, shouldn't make a fuss etc, are really just accepting failure. In this case, those who recognise robbery for what it is, are the ones who are demonstrating that our traditional lack of self-belief is shifting.'"
Fully agree with RH and the general sentiments on here. We've got to feel cheated today.
Just two points in addition though:-
One specific. The video ref could have checked and probably would have more easily been able to adjudicate that Inglis grounded the ball in-goal before the Hall littlefingergate incident came into play. At least it should then have been a goal-line drop-out.
General point. (OK, I'm a Keighley supporter). The arbitrary if not shambolic operation of the internal departments at RFL HQ under Ralph Rimmer's "management" hardly sets the required standard in terms of the professional and fair administration of the sport.
Even so, my overriding feeling of being cheated today will be the ref never penalising the 3rd Aussie defender flopping onto already completed tackles (Smith often scampering 5 yards or more to do it) and the England kicker either being tackled after the kick or obstructed in his follow-up never once being penalised.
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| Quote ="Roy Haggerty"Taken together, the corruption of both video referee and onfield referee in favouring their own, home, team, was easily the most disgusting thing I've seen in international rugby league in forty years. Every single Australian official and administrator should feel ashamed of what transpired today in Melbourne. I feel sickened by it, and by them.'"
But they won't, will they. They won't care. Out of all this nonsense regarding "best refs for the best games" and completely disregarding neutrality, the person that has annoyed me the most has been Luke Watts, because it was his deciding vote that caused this issue in the first place. Who would have thought a New Zealand official would jump into the sack with a scumbag like the NRL/ARL official in Tony Archer after the way the NRL treated his colleagues in the past; people like Glen Black and David Pakieto; Shane Rehm and Leon Williamson. NZ refs who didn't get a chance in the NRL, referee's who were scrutinsed by the likes of Wayne Bennett and Ricky Stuart down to the minute detail. Glen Black actually came out publicly and stated that he was uncomfortable when the ARL made him referee a New Zealand game back in the Tri Nations a few years ago. You'd never hear Perenara come out and say that.
Next week, it will be the same; Perenara will referee New Zealand, Sutton will referee Australia, and Bentham will be left to referee another meaningless friendly match. Cummings nailed it in his comments earlier in the week; he said there was absolutely no point for Watts to be on the panel because he was questioning who Watts has ever produced for international duty. Not Perenara because he's a product of the Australian system. He also said "Jon Sharp may as well come home as he will be out-voted each week.ā
Interesting to hear from 2 coaches with completely different views on things; McNamara has come out, said it didn't look like a try, yet now he's saying he is "disappointed" it wasn't given. Matt Parrish has come out and absolutely blasted the officials, especially Perenara. I think the defining factor is McNamara has a job in the NRL. He won't want to rock the boat because he's probably afraid he will get canned.
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| McNamara should be seething and demanding neutral referees for the remaining fixture(s). Saying that, Perenara is just as bad.
There's no way an Australian VR would give a decision to put them out of tournament, he'd never work in Australia again.
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| Quote ="Happy Hooker"I agree about the rule being crap and done away with, but THAT is the rule we played under today so this quote I a bit silly
However we played and whatever the reff did against us in open play, one point still holds true............The disallowed try was grounded by Hall. It matters not if he only gets a finger tip on it (even his little finger) The evidence is there for ALL to see and those that can't see it or either blind................( or in the VR's case ) just cheats, plain and simple.'"
Well Happy I may be bloody old but I am not blind ......yet.
I agree with the stills displayed on here that it does appear to be the way you and many others claim it to be, But when the video was shown from the opposite side I could not honestly try, at all, to claim that it looked as conclusive.
I am referring to the video and the continuation that that medium shows, I would therefore being fair ( which I would contend also is more than could be levelled at the NRL lot) have to go with the decision as given.
I do know that the rules are why Inglis's try was disallowed but I find it a ridiculous pedantic one that has crept in and which is creating nothing less than a cheats charter, Cherry-Evan's attempt at getting Watkins try disallowed completely vindicates that view, it should be stopped as it does a disservice to the game.
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| I don't get the complaints at Inglis' try being ruled out. Was as clear as day, the dummy runner ran in front of Inglis' in to the line and impeded Smith's progress towards Inglis. Would Smith have been able to stop Inglis I don't know, but he went through a gap created by his dummy runner impacting a defender. It is exactly why we have an obstruction rule.
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| [del[/del Quote ="WireFanatic III"At a guess, I would say Gerard Sutton with his brother Bernie in the VR booth again.'"
I didn't realise at the time they were brothers, which throws yet another element of farce into the equation.
Not only do we have an Australian refereeing the Kangaroos in a must-win game, we have his fricking BROTHER as video ref. So, there's a good chance any tough decisions will go in favour of the on-field official for fear of making his brother appear incompetent. Whether deliberately, or subconsciously, the risk is there.
Once again, make it nice and simple: remove all possible doubt by having neutral - and non-related, ffs! - officials.
The mind boggles.
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| Quote ="Cronus"[del[/delI didn't realise at the time they were brothers, which throws yet another element of farce into the equation.'"
There is even a THIRD brother who is on the way up the ranks, Chris Sutton.
Don't be surprised to see him as a touchie next week or something like that.
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| Quote ="melman"Well Happy I may be bloody old but I am not blind ......yet.
I agree with the stills displayed on here that it does appear to be the way you and many others claim it to be, But when the video was shown from the opposite side I could not honestly try, at all, to claim that it looked as conclusive.
I am referring to the video and the continuation that that medium shows, I would therefore being fair ( which I would contend also is more than could be levelled at the NRL lot) have to go with the decision as given.
I do know that the rules are why Inglis's try was disallowed but I find it a ridiculous pedantic one that has crept in and which is creating nothing less than a cheats charter, Cherry-Evan's attempt at getting Watkins try disallowed completely vindicates that view, it should be stopped as it does a disservice to the game.'"
So you say you're not blind yet and you also say the video shown from the "opposite" side was not conclusive ? Of course it wasn't, that's why we have various views and angles.
If as you say your not blind then you MUST have seen Halls finger put downward pressure on the ball, (from the one angle that mattered) and that the ball was flat on the ground when it did. ie TRY.
As has been mentioned here before, you can show a thousand pictures to try and disprove something, but only one is needed to show the truth.
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| Quote ="Roy Haggerty"You really should have. The penalties he awarded to Australia in the second half, and the penalties he didn't award to England, were crucial in determining the outcome of that match.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you quite vehemently here. The rules are very clear - downward pressure on the ball by any part of the hand is a try. There was downward pressure on the ball by Hall's finger, and thus it is a try. I genuinely do not understand why some people are claiming this is somehow debatable. It was a 50/50 call for the on-field referee, which is fine - if he'd left it there then I wouldn't be on here crying foul, because at full-speed in the heat of the game, I certainly wouldn't have felt confident making that decision. But when the video referee looks at it, sees absolutely cast-iron 100% evidence of a finger on the ball while it is on the ground, and STILL claims no-try, then you've left the realms of judgement calls and entered into the realms of corruption and cheating. There is no argument about this - it was a straight out and out cheat. Disgraceful.
I have in the past made very similar calls. I think the reason I am so disgusted today is that actually, we WERE good enough today, and we DID do enough to win it. Our forwards beat their forwards, and our threequarters matched theirs. Only in the halves did they have the advantage. It's not often you can say this, but today the difference absolutely was the entirely one-sided penalty count for interference, and the corrupt video referee decision.
The problem with taking the "It's our fault, it was ours for the taking, let ourselves down" line is that whereas I used to think that was about being realistic about our prospects, I now think it's actually part of the cultural cringe of us expecting to lose, and refusing to believe we can win. Today, we were robbed - absolute highway robbery by a bent set of home officials. If that had happened to the Aussies over here, they'd be screaming blue murder from the head of the NRL to the lowliest bag-carrier, and they'd make damn sure that pressure was applied to ensure no repeat could ever happen. That's because they would start from the place where they believe they could have, and should have, won. When it happens to us, I think far too many of our British fans, players and officials start from the place of assuming that we were never good enough to win, and so we shouldn't make too much fuss because it's our fault. Yet today, we were the better team for most of that match, and the Aussies were effectively gifted the second half through the onfield referee, and then outrageously given an undeserved victory by the corrupt video referee. We damn well should be screaming blue murder. Not because we're whining and moping, but because we deserved that victory, and we should back up our players on the field with some courage and determination off the field too.
Those who argue that it's all in our hands, shouldn't make a fuss etc, are really just accepting failure. In this case, those who recognise robbery for what it is, are the ones who are demonstrating that our traditional lack of self-belief is shifting.'"
My belief was that we would win today I was absolutely assured we would at half-time too.
Our backs did exceptionally well especially Sarginson and Hall, and yes our forwards more than matched theirs.............BUT. Not for 25 minutes in the second half.
Hunts inclusion was an example of coaching with some guts and deep knowledge of what was required to help your side, yet by the time he did emerge onto the field the Aussies had already gained the initiative.
We let the game go and I wonder if that was a dressing room decision, to contain rather than keeping the ascendency and going for the jugular?
During the period from; 7 minutes into the second half until 5 minutes from time; the Australian forwards were a match for ours and as a team they outplayed us then, we were not beaten for fitness this time, but simply a lack of cohesiveness within our team over 80 minutes.
And as for delaying tackles no one was any more blatant for that than O'Loughlin.
Maybe Evans tried to do more, but we were lucky on quite a few occasions not to get penalised for some of that.
I have been supporting this game for well over 60 years and am as committed an England fan as you will find, but I do not and cannot go with today's ref being vilified in the way he is being. Overall I dont believe he had too bad a game, I can recall many worse.
The Video ref .... well if the on-field ref was to be Aussie then under no circumstance imaginable should the VF as well have been.
That I do agree was deplorable and does the NRL and Australian's no credit whatsoever.
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| Quote ="Orrell Lad"McNamara should be seething and demanding neutral referees for the remaining fixture(s). Saying that, Perenara is just as bad.
There's no way an Australian VR would give a decision to put them out of tournament, he'd never work in Australia again.'"
Tbf, because it was a try, if only just (even the Aussie commentators went a long way to acknowledging it as they wrestled with the implications of it), I think he'd have probably been okay. The Aussies were lacklustre by their standards and I suspect the team would have taken the blame. But it might well have been burrowing up through his subconscious. He was put in an invidious position.
If there was a rematch in the final (points difference maybe makes that unlikely?), and they go with an Aussie ref and VR, I doubt I'd bother watching. I'd hedge my bets and record it, but check the score first. Having come this far, I can't see them suddenly developing a sense of embarrassment.
Not even that fussed about the game with the kiwis now, tbh.
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| From the other angle I thought that Hall missed the ball but in that case it would have been a drop out. The conclusive angle clearly showed that he touched the ball and got downward pressure. The fact that he recognised that Hall touched the ball irritates me even more because the VR was convinced he touched it in which case how could he not give a try? Saying that he touched the ball as it bounced up is plain nonsense and just serves to cover up a poor decision.
I would just love it if England can pick themselves up from this disappointment and win the tournament.
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| Quote ="Happy Hooker"So you say you're not blind yet and you also say the video shown from the "opposite" side was not conclusive ? Of course it wasn't, that's why we have various views and angles.
If as you say your not blind then you MUST have seen Halls finger put downward pressure on the ball, (from the one angle that mattered) and that the ball was flat on the ground when it did. ie TRY.
As has been mentioned here before, you can show a thousand pictures to try and disprove something, but only one is needed to show the truth.'"
In Lancashire speak Happy , that's known as wanting the cake and ha'penny.
Surely even you can see the anomaly you are advocating when you claim that ONLY your accepted angle can vindicate the outcome you desire?
To be conclusive the image that is total proof must be seen to be so from any clear and unobstructed view available. Maybe it's your eyes, or reasoning, that requires some testing also?
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| I think Sheens and Cameron Smith's comments are pretty telling. They don't say it's not a try based on downward pressure/Inglis perhaps grounding it/ball rising up etc.....for them they say it's a correct call simply because Hall didn't celebrate. No actual view/comment on the incident, just Hall's reaction, I think it shows they know deep down it was a try.
One Aussie news report I read claims Hall "climbed all over the back of Inglis" so even if the grounding was more clear cut then the Aussie VR would've found another way to rule it out with Hall probably penalised. Same report claims that when Bird tipped O'Loughlin over his shoulder and dumped him on his head/neck that it was O'Loughlin who somersaulted over Bird that caused that incident.
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| Quote ="melman"In Lancashire speak Happy , that's known as wanting the cake and ha'penny.
Surely even you can see the anomaly you are advocating when you claim that ONLY your accepted angle can vindicate the outcome you desire?
To be conclusive the image that is total proof must be seen to be so from any clear and unobstructed view available. Maybe it's your eyes, or reasoning, that requires some testing also?'"
Nonsense. You can have a million different angles and views, and maybe non of them can show "inconclusive proof" If however just one angle shows "conclusive proof" then......................In Lancashire speak melman, The other angles mean Bugger'all.
Ask yourself just ONE question before you reply.
DID YOU SEE HALLS HAND TOUCH THE BALL THAT WAS ON THE GROUND IN ANY OF THE VIEWS ?
If the answer is yes then ALL the other "inconclusive" views are made null and void.
If the answer is No then I would suggest a visit to specksavers should be your priority tomorrow.
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| The Aussies have no shame in cheating. They were given so much field position on the back of 'nothing' penalties it was ridiculous. The very fact that they argued for 4 hours till they got their own way with an Aussie ref says it all. No class.
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| Quote ="Happy Hooker"Nonsense. You can have a million different angles and views, and maybe non of them can show "inconclusive proof" If however just one angle shows "conclusive proof" then......................In Lancashire speak melman, The other angles mean Bugger'all.
Ask yourself just ONE question before you reply.
DID YOU SEE HALLS HAND TOUCH THE BALL THAT WAS ON THE GROUND IN ANY OF THE VIEWS ?
If the answer is yes then ALL the other "inconclusive" views are made null and void.
If the answer is No then I would suggest a visit to specksavers should be your priority tomorrow.
'"
It is spelt SpeCsavers son. Sorry but if one aspect denies another there cannot be any conclusive decision arrived at. They call that common sense.
I see that you are belying your moniker and getting into an Unhappy state of mind over this and my attitude to it.
We have different opinions on the subject and somehow I do believe we will have to agree to differ on the subject.
I certainly have no chance of winning you around to my argument and vice versa.
Happy days son, don't let it upset you anymore.
We I hope can agree on one thing, that being, we both want England to be playing the Aussies again in two weeks time and the demand going out that there is a neutral set of officials in attendance.
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