But according to you it is as much Wigan and Leeds' fault that the game has not expanded. Do make up your mind.

Please explain your hypothesis that somehow "poor clubs" have prevented geographical expansion of the game, which I think, is the argument you are making.

nope wigan are pretty much my idea of a perfect SL club.

if leeds fixed headingly theyd be perfect too.

Hull FC, warrington are clearly the idea of SL clubs and hudds getting there.

Hull KR are the benchmark for the rest of how a small club should go about improving itself.

if you have 14 clubs like wigan or leeds, you wouldnt need threads like this

RL would be a whole lot bigger

But we dont and we never will have clubs like that from area's that dont already play the game , or are you suggesting we have a 6 team SL ?

I know you wont answer this question

i think SL could easily have 14 big heartland clubs

easily.

Got to disagree there, the championship teams shoud have to apply for a franchise every time it comes around. They must be in a position to at least put in a bid to be able to play in the championship. I say 8 maybe 10 teams.

It supported a multim illion pound tv deal, had 35 teams from 3 nations, had a nationaly televised cup competition with 95 teams from 4 nations and drew over a hundred thousand people in each week?

i would be impressed if that were true duck

do you drible when you do it?

You're the one with a double standard, you don't compare like for like, to you a heartland team gaving their own ground that isn't very nice should be compared as a failure with Crusaders not having a fixed home ground and a temporary financial set back at a heartland club should be compared to Paris ceasing to exist

The RFL throwing millions at Crusaders is imprudent.

Expansion is a good if it benefits the sport, not as a charity. Spending millions getting a SL club in Wrexham watched by 3000 people (most of them away fans) isn't prudent, it is stupidity that harms the sport. Spending money the sport can't afford on the slight off chance a club might turn a small profit in 20 years is ludicrous and doesn't benefit the sport, I'd rather see the money spent on getting more people playing the game at amateur level and getting a semi-pro club for each region of the country (i.e. not just token non-English clubs)

And this is happening, is it?

You're doing the Challenge Cup a dis-service there; weren't there entrants from England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France and Russia last year?

Thought it might be more but wasnt sure.

You are trolling dally.

You were trying to suggest that clubs in the late 19th century / early 20th century were remiss for not developing the game outside their immediate area.

This was an era when almost nobody owned a car and there was little public transport. Lots of people had never even seen the sea and yet they ought to have been walking huge distances to a town they had never been to watch a game they'd probably never heard of....

Look what the ARU did with the ARC.

That's why.

Rugby league is a minority sport in England. You cannot possibly compare it with AFL, the Australian national sport.

Not from Ireland anymore, they stopped inviting them because they hardly ever turned up

Bingo you halfwit, that was my point!!

There was an already long established history - perhaps even hotbeds of the game in those 2 areas before they were allowed to compete in the premier comp.

RL in South Wales (and London for that matter) has had half hearted attempts at professional set ups for only the last 30 years or so and has never been lucky enough to have a pro-active and rich organisation such as the AFL to back things up.

Solid, slow and strong growth are the fundamentals required to integrate teams into the upper echelons of the sport.

What is happening at Celtic is like teaching a 3 year old to swim and then throwing him a 30 kilo lead weight to help him out.

HTH.

I thought the Russian teams had stopped entering the CC because the RFL had stopped funding their travel?

In that case, I stand corrected, but still with an extra country than the original post

Quote ="tb"And this is happening, is it?'" I was referring to Dally's suggestion that the RFL should fund expansion with the logical conclusion. I have no idea how much extra money (if any) the RFL give the Crusaders though they have had an RFL task force running the club since July when they hit financial troubles. The debts would suggest they haven't been bailed out as such www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/rug ... -25253709/

Quote ="tb"And this is happening, is it?'" I was referring to Dally's suggestion that the RFL should fund expansion with the logical conclusion. I have no idea how much extra money (if any) the RFL give the Crusaders though they have had an RFL task force running the club since July when they hit financial troubles. The debts would suggest they haven't been bailed out as such www.walesonline.co.uk/sports/rug ... -25253709/

Ok, can you provide an example since WW2 of a club which has grown from amateur beginnings into a solid SL club via this method ?

Do only SL clubs count as "success"?

The reason why this didn't happen was that the new teams came from small towns such as Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster etc. Haven doesn't even have a cinema, the idea that it could ever support a SL team is pie-in-the-sky.

The game needs to expand into larger cities but this didn't happen because of RFU sanctions and so bottom-up methods were impossible. This 2009 not 1909, there is no reason not to use effective methods just because those options didn't exist until now.

Thats what aussie fans don't understand. We are a tiny sport in this country. Our biggest clubs average over 14,000. In football they can fill 75,000 seats every week. There are clubs in the 3rd tier bigger than our biggest. RU can fill huge stadiums all over GB for internationals in Wales and Scotland and Ireland as well as England. Cricket have the most in demand tickets when the ashes come around. Tennis sold over 250,000 seats for the ATP world tour this week.

We have a great product but how can you sell it to people who are happy with their own?

No.

I am not talking about the past. There was never any real will in the past as has been found out by those who saw how difficult it is to make a club from nothing too quickly.

I'm talking about what happens now in the present and the future.

We are in a newer media led age now with more wealthy people compared to maybe even 10 - 15 years ago. In theory it should be easier to build a club up to Super League level as long as there is the backing of the people in the area and wealthy benefactors with sound business plans.

It will never be easy and there are massive obstacles in the way but only strength of will and sustainable growth will make successes.

That's probably a reasonable analysis of SL clubs but I don't think we were talking about that.

So are you saying it takes a bit longer than 4 or 5 years then?