If, as most people suggest, we start with Burgess and Ellis in the 2nd row... Who would you rather have on the bench covering 2nd row? One 2nd row on the bench is enough IMO and at the moment both players are playing brilliantly.

Westwood for me but very tough call. Lack of goal kickers is an advantage for him and he seems to have cut down on idiotic penalty sprees (mostly).

If only we had the same kind of tough decisions to make in the backs

Seen as there's not much between them, see who plays better in the warm-up game.

Westwood, has a bit more composure when he makes a break, Tomkins has a tendency to kick it on instead of making the easy pass. Westwood has value as a goal kicker too.

Tomkins could be used as a centre, he's played there at times this season, and can't be any worse than Clubb.

Joel Tomkins would be my backrower on the interchange bench, he has all the physical aspects and ability to make an impact at Test Level.
Westwood is an honest plodder, not overly big, strong or skilful.

stick joel in the ....

Westwood for me.

I don't think there's much in it apart from Tomkins is a bit of a hot head and penalty machine.

Of course I am slightly biased...

Westwoods an engine, if you're looking for huge impact, he's not really your man.

We've got great backrowers, i'd be tempted to play one of them and 'waste' Burgess at prop.

'tis a 17 man game these days... Burgess is probably England's strike forward but that doesn't mean he has to start

If we had Ellis, Westwood and O'loughlin in the back row, we have the payers with the engine to play 80 minutes... that means we can rotate Graham, Morley, Burgess and Crabtree in the front row and use one of Harrison and J Tomkins as cover for the back row

This would give us a competitive pack for 80 minutes I think

Joel Tomkins -- Ben Westwood


Appearances 27 - 23
Tries 13 - 6
Try assists 7 - 3
Goals 0 - 40
Drop Goals 0 - 0
Meters 2577 -1972
Carries 400 - 319
Tackles 749 - 642
Offloads 45 - 34
Attacking Kicks 2 - 1
Runs from dummy half 10 - 2
Tackle Busts 64 - 41
Marker tackles 134 - 109
Clean Breaks 9 - 3
Forty twenty 0 - 0
Kicks in general play 3 - 2
Missed goals 0 - 11
Missed tackles 41 - 37
Errors 26 - 19
Penalties 33 - 14
Red cards 0 - 0
Yellow cards 2 - 0

Westwood is a good workhorse second rower but Joel Tomkins is just as good at the duties of being a workhorse look at Carries, metres and tackles. But then you look at the attacking stats and Joel wins hands down in tries, assists, clean breaks, offloads and tackle busts hes a much greater threat and that what we need V's the Aussies players who can score special trys. The thing that lets Joel down is he loses his head at times and makes the odd mistake as shown in the stats but in the bigger games he doesnt look at his performances all through the playoffs.

No question who should be in first J Tomkins without a doubt.

thats why we should play him in the


how do his stats compare with atkins and shenton?


*edit*

very comparable to atkins...better than shenton

I don't think we can compare stats when players are playing in different positions

I would be very wary of playing people away from their natural positions - I know Tomkins has played in the centre a few times for Wigan but this is to fill in, not a specific game plan

Surely we have learnt our lesson now - we should play players in their natural positions, not just try to get our best 17 players on the park... let's not go back to the days of 5 loose forwards in the team!

he plays 1 man inside the right for christ sake...there'll be absolutely no difference where he plays whether its in defence or attack...plus he'll give us much needed size and strength out wide..

I think the coach will take both and only one prop on the bench. Westwood and Burgess will cover the work of the 4th prop between them.

not particulary what I'd do, but what I think the coach will.

One in from right centre is not right centre so I don't see how there can be absolutely no difference?

Centre is a vital defensive position for both run and kick plays - I am not sure that Tomkins is ready for that in international league (I know we are weak in the centres but the best chance we have is actually playing centres in the centre)

Westwood. He only has 1 screw loose. Joel has several plus Westwood may be required as a goal kicker.

Missed tackles 41 - 37
Errors 26 - 19
Penalties 33 - 14
Yellow cards 2 - 0

Westwood for these 4 reasons alone. There stats may not damage you too much against the likes of Quins and Salford, but the Aussies and Kiwi's will make you pay

Missed tackles you cant really use as a plus for westwood as hes made 4 less but played 4 less games so his missed tackles ratio is worse than Joels.

In big games Joel is at his best attitude wise i dont know the stats but in the GF i dont remember him making one mistake or giving one penalty away.

personally, id put Joel in the back row and put Ellis in the centres

..and how did that work out in last year's final?

Tomkins, has the skills to go a long way!

Tomkins at centre is a great shout IMO.

I don't think internationals are the place for this experimentation, but I'd be very happy (from and International point of veiw, more worried from a club point of veiw) if Wigan tried it next year.

This.

Joel Tomkins struggles to keep his temperament in pretty run-of-the-mill games. The Aussies would eat him alive.

I would play Westwood at prop and Joel at 2nd row, Westwood isn't good enough, quick enough, skillfull or agile enough to play 2nd row against the Aussies.